Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Bob,
However, you CAN connect such apparatus using an adapter.
--
Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Bob,
However, you CAN connect such apparatus using an adapter.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Joe if there is no grounding means at the outlet as in knob & tube for the sake of simplicity, you are not permitted to use any of that equipment in the list with a adapter or not.
How a homeowner is supposed to be aware of that I have no idea. 
I have read a lot of what you have all have hashed out before and do not agree with a lot of it.
I see talk of corrosion and certain ohms of resistance, none of that is from the NEC.
I see people saying a particular AHJ allows this or that, I believe that entirely, however that does not change the NEC perspective that old BX is not a grounding conductor.
If asked to change an existing two wire outlet to a 3 wire outlet at a location with a old BX feed the only way I could do it within code is with the use of GFCI protection.
Now they have a 3 wire outlet with a no equipment ground sticker that they can not use with anything in the list I posted.
Bob
--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Bob
Agreed.
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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| Mike Parks wrote: |
| Erol
I am glad that you asked. Most will not ask. The "white" wire is called the "grounded" conductor, so the oulet is grounded. Mike P. |
JP: Mike, the outlet is NOT grounded. The white (hopefully it's white) conductor IS grounded, but the receptacle outlet IS NOT grounded.
| Mike Parks wrote: |
| The "bare" wire is the egc (equipment grounding conductor). This is the 3rd wire in a 3 prong system.
Mike P. |
JP: Correct, but that does not make a two wire receptacle "grounded", they are not.
| Mike Parks wrote: |
| As far as safety-- go to your TV or a lamp and look at the plug. The big blade is the grounded conductor.
Mike P. |
JP: The wide blade on a polarized plug, older plugs are not polarized, both blades are the same width, they can be inserted either way.
| Mike Parks wrote: |
| Ground, grounded, grounding, bond, bonded and bonding is something "we" argue about all the time.
Now to confuse you more when the ground is missing they are taking about the egc. I won't even start taking about the "neutral". Mike P. |
JP: The above is correct, but you are incorrect when you state that a two wire (two prong) receptacle "is grounded", it IS NOT grounded. Having a "grounded conductor" does NOT make the receptacle, or anything plugged into it, "grounded".
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Thanks guys for the clarification guys. I trained with an inspector who had 20 years experience and told the client they had to be updated. That they were especially a hazard for the kids bedrooms.
Erol Kartal
ProInspect
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jerry,
Mike is on the money, to the NEC a outlet with a grounded conductor is grounded outlet.
An outlet with a grounding means is a grounding outlet.
Here is a short example.
| Quote: |
| 250.138 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment.
Non?current-carrying metal parts of cord-and-plug-connected equipment, if grounded, shall be grounded by one of the methods in 250.138(A) or (B). (A) By Means of an Equipment Grounding Conductor. By means of an equipment grounding conductor run with the power supply conductors in a cable assembly or flexible cord properly terminated in a grounding-type attachment plug with one fixed grounding contact. |
Yeah it can be a real pain.
To make it clear think of 3 wire range or dryer receptacles these are grounded outlets that use the grounded conductor to ground the chassis.
Now think of 4 wire range or dryer receptacles these are grounding type outlets that use a grounding conductor to ground the chassis.
--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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When I come across the two prong receptacles I simply suggest to the client that any area’s that need the third prong (grounding or EGC) be updated when attached to sensitive electronic equipment, such as TV’s, computers or stereo’s.
Refrigerators, washers or any other appliances that have the adapter on them are listed in the report as a defect.  My thought about this is a simple one, if it did not need the third prong (grounding) it would not be there. Big difference between using one on a temporary basis and using one in a permanent installation.
Bob B, Mike P.
Thanks for coming over to this forum and sharing your knowledge. I have found your posts to be well thought out and written. 
You both deserve one ATTA BOY!
Joe Myers
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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| Bob Badger wrote: |
| ... I agree the two wire outlets themselves are not a hazard ... |
I don't really agree with you and Mike on that one.
Since the cheater plugs are legal/listed/sold you just know they are gonna be used. How would any homeowner have a clue what the NEC restrictions are, or what is meant by the tiny warning on a cheater plug to "Connect Tab to Grounded Screw" ... they probably will think that means hook it up the faceplate screw, even though in reality it may not be "grounded" (with an EGC). Imagine a big metal refrigerator on one of those outlets without any hot to casing short protection ... it does happen, and I might have some pics of that buried somewhere ... 
Plus if a cheater plug is used on an old 2-prong outlet where the box/screw is "grounded", this could be a hazard too (or even with a newer GFCI with the ground terminal connected to the box on the older cables ? e.g. really old "BX" style AC cable, or even AC with the bonding wire used since around 1960).
If there is a hot to casing short on these older cables and the casing isn't connected back to the panel neutral buss then the casing will be hot without tripping the breaker or any GFCI outlet connected. If the casing is connected back to the buss (usually the case even if indirectly), then a hot to casing short could heat up corroded or poorly connected casing with a high resistance, again without tripping the breaker or any GFCI outlet ... a serious hazard again ... 
So IMHO old 2-prong outlets (and even newer GFCI outlets on some older cables) could indeed be a serious hazard in certain situations. Very sticky issue, and part of the reason for the post.
--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: roconnor
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P.S. Thats why I agree with Joe M. that old 2-prong outlets are not always safe in areas likely to see 3-prong equipment/appliances.
I think they either need to be checked out for the possibility of a cheater plug being used or a sparky called in to upgrade the outlets/wiring.
And I also agree with his ATTA BOY ... 
Thanks
--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee
I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Joe & Robert thank you for your kind words.
Unfortunately judging by a PM I got some feel I am "Taking advantage" of this site as I am not a member of NACHI.
I thought I was giving back as much as I was taking from this site and NACHI.
Is that the official position of this board, I am not welcome unless I join NACHI or just one members opinion?
Bob
--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
Originally Posted By: jpope
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This is an OPEN board! All are welcome. Please disregard the “PM” you may have received stating anything to the contrary.
If anyone disagrees, please don't "PM" me. State it here publicly.
--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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"How would any homeowner have a clue what the NEC restrictions are, or what is meant by the tiny warning on a cheater plug to “Connect Tab to Grounded Screw”
Agreed. BTW were is the "grounded" screw?
That is why, I think Bob agrees, these adapters and outlets on the load side of a GFCI give the public a false sense of security.
They use to sell a 4' ground rod at a big box store until I was able to show them that they were misleading the public. " Well we have been selling them for 20 years!".
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Joe (I forgot Robert in the original post)
Sorry for the late thank you for your praise.
Nothing that I say should be taken as gospel. While I believe that most of what I post is true, it should be reviewed by the reader.
I am sure that at times Bob looks at some of the things I say with the shake of the head, not here I hope. We continue to converse in a respectful way.
The reason that I say this is that too many people misread what is written.
I hope this can transfer to the other sections of this forum.
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob B.,
No, a two wire (two prong) receptacle is not grounded.
From the 2002 NEC. (highlighting with underlining is mine)
406.3 General Installation Requirements.
Receptacle outlets shall be located in branch circuits in accordance with Part III of Article 210. General installation requirements shall be in accordance with 406.3(A) through (F).
(A) Grounding Type. Receptacles installed on 15- and 20-ampere branch circuits shall be of the grounding type. Grounding-type receptacles shall be installed only on circuits of the voltage class and current for which they are rated, except as provided in Table 210.21(B)(2) and (B)(3).
Exception: Nongrounding-type receptacles installed in accordance with 406.3(D).
(B) To Be Grounded. Receptacles and cord connectors that have grounding contacts shall have those contacts effectively grounded.
Exception No. 1: Receptacles mounted on portable and vehicle-mounted generators in accordance with 250.34.
Exception No. 2: Replacement receptacles as permitted by 406.3(D).
JP: The grounding contacts must be "effectively grounded", as stated above.
From 2002 NEC
Grounded, Effectively. Intentionally connected to earth through a ground connection or connections of sufficiently low impedance and having sufficient current-carrying capacity to prevent the buildup of voltages that may result in undue hazards to connected equipment or to persons.
JP: This (above) is referring to the equipment grounding conductor.
From the 2002 NEC. (highlighting with underlining is mine)
250.138 Cord-and-Plug-Connected Equipment.
Non?current-carrying metal parts of cord-and-plug-connected equipment, if grounded, shall be grounded by one of the methods in 250.138(A) or (B).
(A) By Means of an Equipment Grounding Conductor. By means of an equipment grounding conductor run with the power supply conductors in a cable assembly or flexible cord properly terminated in a grounding-type attachment plug with one fixed grounding contact.
Exception: The grounding contacting pole of grounding-type plug-in ground-fault circuit interrupters shall be permitted to be of the movable, self-restoring type on circuits operating at not over 150 volts between any two conductors or over 150 volts between any conductor and ground.
(B) By Means of a Separate Flexible Wire or Strap. By means of a separate flexible wire or strap, insulated or bare, protected as well as practicable against physical damage, where part of equipment.
Receptacles are referred to as "grounding-type" and "nongrounding-type". The "grounded conductor" does not make the receptacle a "grounded" receptacle.
--
Jerry Peck
South Florida
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry
"From 2002 NEC
Grounded, Effectively. Intentionally connected to earth through a ground connection "
You are making our point. LOL 
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jerry it is all in how you perceive it.
Is a range grounded when plugged into a 3 wire outlet with no grounding conductor?
When you plug in a lamp to a two wire non-grounding outlet is the screw shell of the lamp grounded?
Are the internal metal parts of a television chassis grounded when plugged into the two wire outlet?
A grounded conductor does not make a grounding outlet but does make the outlet a grounded type as opposed to a straight 240 outlet.
But hey we each are entitled to are own opinions, I have been wrong before and maybe I am now.
Bob
--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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“I have been wrong before and maybe I am now.”
Bob never!
  
Mike P.(a Bennie want-a-be) 
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob B.
Tell I said they were to go FU** themself. No, I don't really care where it came from. You wisdom and common sense is always welcome here.
Judging from the few posts of yours that I have read, I do believe we stand to gain more from your presence than you from ours.
I am not sure who or why someone would send you such an annoying PM but please disregard it, you certainly don't have to be a member to participate.
I have found that while the codes to be less than friendly to play with and since so many play on a day to day basis, you can certainly find more opinions on the codes than you can A**HOLES in a crowd. While some know the code to the letter, it find it consoling that you take the common sense approach when interpreting them. A little common sense goes a long way in my book. 
Joe Myers
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Why do I refer to “Bennie”? He makes us think. Sorry that I have not explained this before.
Mike P.
Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jerry,
I also agree with them when it comes to grounded and grounding outlets. If I am not mistaken there was some proposed code changes that were supposed to take place in order to clarify all the confusion that was taking place about the grounded and grounding terminology.
If you take a look at any of the appliances manuals you will notice that in those manuals, the manufacturers recommend a three prong outlet and most state not to use the adapters.
If I am not mistaken the strap on those two prong receptacles, is indeed bonded to the grounded conductor of the receptacle (not to be confused with the grounding conductor, or EGC). The three prong receptacles are bonded to the grounding conductor or EGC.
The real problem that I have with the adapters is that it is not as safe an installation as the grounding receptacles. Kind of like GFCI protection at the kitchen and bathroom sinks. 
Joe Myers