Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin the reason it gives is pure BS.
GFCIs do not have the ability to sense a surge, to say they do is like saying you can see with your ears. 
dedwards reason sounds logical.
If we take your HI book at face value that would mean the NEC is wrong to require GFCIs in commercial kitchens, and no offense I have more faith in the NEC than a book that is trying to deal with every trade.
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Everyone,
As I read through these threads about GFCI receptacles, I wonder.....
Why does a HI feel it is his duty to test any electrical eguipment?
Why would you want to be on record for testing any electrical device and stating the results? Would you test a ceiling fan to see if it operated on all the speeds and reverse also?
A HI certainly wouldn't test a circuit breaker's trip curve. Nor would a HI test a garage door opener to see if the clutch/reversing settings were correct.
So this is why I ask WHY?
Originally Posted By: jpope This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
device. Not to say that breakers in a service panel are NOT a safety device, but it’s along the same lines as why we check smoke detectors.
We do not check by dismantling or other invasive methods.
Standard mechanisms are a part of our inspection. I have come across GFCI's that reset to reverse polarity after testing, garage doors that have no pressure return even though the electronic sensors function properly and other things that go along with "every day living" in a home.
-- Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Kevin it may be a fine book and I am sure the person that wrote that believed in it.
The only way a motor can cause a GFCI to trip is through induction, a transformer could do the same thing, that said I do not see it happening I spend most of my working time on construction sites and everything is GFCI protected on those sites. 
This has absolutely noting to due with a surge in current, I found something in a respected trade Magazine EC&M and I will post some of it and a link.
However some things have changed since this was written in 1995, the NEC now does require GFCI protection on circuits that may feed refrigerators and freezers.
Quote:
Do not protect some appliances. While the NEC requires a number of receptacles in the kitchen, garage, and basement to be GFCI protected, protection is not required on those serving refrigerators, freezers, or sump pumps. In addition to the obvious reasons of not wanting to interrupt power to these important appliances, some older types of frost-free refrigerators and freezers have relatively high leakage currents when in the defrost cycle. GFCI circuits should be routed so these appliances are not on protected circuits.
Now keep in mind this is 9 years ago and the NEC has changed it's position, also they say nothing of surges tripping GFCIs, it is always leakage current.
Originally Posted By: Bob Badger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave Nix wrote:
Hi Everyone,
As I read through these threads about GFCI receptacles, I wonder.....
Why does a HI feel it is his duty to test any electrical eguipment?
Why would you want to be on record for testing any electrical device and stating the results? Would you test a ceiling fan to see if it operated on all the speeds and reverse also?
A HI certainly wouldn't test a circuit breaker's trip curve.
Dave everyone of us is qualified to test a GFCI, UL asks us to, this is hardly the same as testing a breakers trip curve.
If you are a homeowner paying for a home inspection wouldn't you expect them to at least test items that have a test button, GFCIs Smoke detectors, Co2 sensors etc.?
I fail to see how I (as an electrician) am that much more qualified to push a test button and report the results.
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Bob,
My point was this below;
Quote:
Why would you want to be on record for testing any electrical device and stating the results?
not the qualifications of the tester!
I agree that anyone may test a GFCI and there is nothing wrong with that. As you stated, they are to be tested monthly. Interestingly enough, the manufacturers state the way to test a GFCI is with the built-in "test button" and yet this forum has this as their "Standards of Practice"
Quote:
J. And report on any GFCI-tested receptacles in which power is not present, polarity is incorrect, the receptacle is not grounded, is not secured to the wall, the cover is not in place, the ground fault circuit interrupter devices are not properly installed or do not operate properly, or evidence of arcing or excessive heat is present.
L. The ground fault circuit interrupters with a GFCI tester.
both of which seem a little much for a HI to be reporting in writing especially if the "L." is performed which is outside of the manufacturer's recommendation.
Originally Posted By: kmcmahon This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Not sure about the rest here, but it’s required by regulation in WI that we test all GFCI’s and a random sampling of outlets (at least one in each room)
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave
So what your are saying then is something along the lines of If you press the test button and the power is removed from the outlet all is fine? I don't think so.
Using logic like that then, I suppose that you judge the oil fluid level in your car by looking at the idiot gauge. Since you are not a certified auto mechanic it is beyond the scope of you,the owner or the kid who works at the local gas station, to open the hood and pull the dip stick out to check it.
Bob is right, the average HI, has the ability to insert a circuit tester into a wall receptacle, read and report on the findings. Of course recommending further evaluations by a licensed and QUALIFIED electrician, when required. With the emphasis on qualified.
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hi Paul,
Quote:
So what your are saying then is something along the lines of If you press the test button and the power is removed from the outlet all is fine?
No. I made no such reference. Please re-read what my point was as stated above in my post to Bob.
Quote:
I suppose that you judge the oil fluid level in your car by looking at the idiot gauge.
No, and I am not making this personel.
Your reference to the kid at the gas station is different than the one I was trying to make about the HI "putting it in writing" which is considerably different than the kid checking the dipstick. As a proffessional HI, you are risking your reputation and incurring some degree of liabiliy when you sign the report. If you needed a car inspected and you wanted the inspection to hold any weight, you would take you car to the certified mechanic for a written report, not simply say "the kid said the oil needs to be changed"!
To use the same analogy, if the mechanic tested your car with a method not recommended by the manufacturer or changed the oil with a type not recommended by the manufacturer, the mechanic would be liable for any damages resulting from his methods.
Originally Posted By: psabados This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave
What is exactly accomplished by depressing the test button? What does it prove?
Harry homeowner has a house built in the 70's, he's reading an article about electrical safety and GFCI protection. He's misses the part about using a licensed electrician or qualified installer. Goes to the local Home Depot, see's them on racks, decides, hmm! Only three connections I can do that. He does the installation and feels pretty good about, why because the manufacturer said to press the test button. It works.
Harry's sold the house, the new buyers want it inspected. I do the inspection, but instead of using a GFCI unit, all I do is push the button. Yep it worked.
Now Mrs. New Homeowner is in the bathroom getting ready for work. She has the curling iron sitting on the sink heating up while she's brushing her teeth. Curling iron falls into the sink, she's severely injured from the electrical shock.
Who's getting sued on this one, me or the manufacturer. When asked how I tested the receptacle I answered in my best Gomer Pyle voice
Golleeeeeeeee! I pressed the button just like it said. It worked just fine
Oh, by the way. Harry Homeowner installed it with reverse polarity and the ground wire fell off because he didn't tighten it correctly. Didn't know this though because I don't have to use a GFCI tester because the manufacturer says so.
So, more liability and forget about ever working again. In my opinion, that form of testing is like building codes or being awarded a government contract, MINIMUM standards met.
Originally Posted By: Dave Nix This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I’m sorry I didn’t explain this well enough for everyone to understand.
The only approved method for testing a GFCI receptacle or breaker is to use the test button.
Now for those of you who don't understand what this means;
After you have pushed the test button you will have to use some sort of electrical device that will indicate that the electricity has in fact been disconnected from the receptacle or receptacles attached to the GFCI device. Based on your findings you will be able to report if the GFCI is functioning properly.
Conversly, if you use any other method ( as opposed to the built in test button) to test the GFCI device, you are doing so against the manufactures instructions.
For those of you who did understand my previous post;
Please excuse my lengthy explaination for those that needed more help in understanding the process of proper GFCI testing.
Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Use only the test button on the GFCI? So by that logic, I don’t have to test the bathroom wired downstream to see if it trips the GFCI?
I can't tell you how many times the GFCI has tripped from another bathroom, but not at the source, or vice versa. I have pushed the test button in a bathroom and had the power go off there, only to find power still on in the outlet on the other side of the sink. GFCI's are cheap, and are very often found broken. I would rather pay to have a new GFCI installed because I broke it by "not following the manufacturers instructions to use the test button" than to not find some of these issues. BTW, don't the manufacturers just say to test that way because most homeowners wouldn't have a tester?
I'll continue to follow our SOP, especially since that is what is in my inspection agreement with my client.
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Dave Nix wrote:
I agree that anyone may test a GFCI and there is nothing wrong with that. As you stated, they are to be tested monthly. Interestingly enough, the manufacturers state the way to test a GFCI is with the built-in "test button" and yet this forum has this as their "Standards of Practice"
Quote:
L. The ground fault circuit interrupters with a GFCI tester.
both of which seem a little much for a HI to be reporting in writing especially if the "L." is performed which is outside of the manufacturer's recommendation.
Dave,
That is because you are making incorrect assumptions.
What did you use to the the GFCI when you pressed the GFCIs test button?
Give up? You used a GFCI tester. Not a separate and independent GFCI tester, but a GFCI tester, one which was built into the GFCI device.
Now, "L" is not performed outside of the manufacturer's recommendation, is it.
Now, to take it a step further, if you test receptacles, which should have GFCI protection, to check for reverse polarity, etc., then press the GFCI devices test button, you will have tested per the SoP, with a GFCI tester. Did the GFCI, upon pressing its test button, remove power to the downstream receptacles? You report either yes or no.
Now, we can test with our GFCI tester, but the SoP does not require that, we do that for our convenience in testing GFCIs.
