4-point question

Do you report on the sub panel or just the main?
Do you report a TPR that doesn’t terminate to the outside as a safety issue? I know what you say on a home inspection but what about on a 4-point?

Yes and yes .
You need a 4 point form.

While probabley not required I personally inspect sub panels as one must answer the question are any electrical safety hazards present.

There is and has never been any requirement for a TPRV to terminate to the exterior, only that it terminate to a point that will not cause damage to the property (building code), again this may or not be within the scope of a four point in that the Insurance companies to not ask about the terminal

I have been doing this since Mar 2013 and I’m trying to learn the ropes/standars…
I use the Citizens form which I feel is vague in what they are asking. For example, in the electrical section it states “main panel” and then “panel #2”. Is panel #2 the sub panel or another main panel? If it is a sub panel then why not say all sub panels? BTW, sub panel pictures are not required so why should I assume it needs to be inspected/reported? I don’t mind the extra steps but this just seems to create problems/cost for the homeowner.
As for the water heater, the form states list all “hazards” for the water heater… If the TPRV terminates behind the water heat, in the garage, is that a “hazard” or a code issue? Why don’t they list what they consider “hazards” like they do in the electrical section?
I had a Citizens report kicked back as I didn’t include pictures of the plumbing under the kitchen sink and all the bathroom sinks… I found this frustrating and confusing as their form states the minimum pictures required are front/rear elevations, Main Panel, HVAC equipment and all hazards notes.
I had another house become an issue at closing as the HVAC picture displayed the lack of a hand rail on the stairs in the background. This issue was identified on the HI report but how does that fall into a 4-point?
As for needing a form, is there a standard form that HI’s are to use?

Charge $125 with another inspection or $150 stand alone and take pictures of everything.

It helps with the frustration :slight_smile:

I will not even think about a State Farm one :slight_smile:

To do them at traditional 4 point prices hurts us all.

I am surprised that Citizen’s kicked back for no sink photos. Was this the only request, or where there other issues noted? The sub panels are to be inspected also. This is the second panel on the CIT form.

You do have to understand that the carriers are a bit sneaky when they review your photos and will look beyond the targeted subject.

I agree…Raise Your Prices

Page 3 on the Citizens 4 point states

CERTIFYING THE CONDITION OF EACH SYSTEM
The Florida-licensed inspector is required to certify the condition of the electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems. “Acceptable Condition” means that each system is working as intended and there are no visible hazards or deficiencies

**They are asking you to certify that all four of these systems are working as intended with no visible hazards or deficiencies. This statement leaves a very grey area as to what is to be inspected. On the electrical side they ask for Panel #2. I take that to mean the distribution panel, as most houses have a service panel and a distribution panel. Then the question arises, what about the AC service disconnect. What if there is a burned wire in there. Should it be reported. I think it should. Are you crawling through the attic - open splices and junction boxes area deficiencies. And should you be testing every outlet in the house that is visible.

Look at AC. Do you report if the temperature drop is out of wack. If it is then the unit is not functioning as intended. And if the air handler coils are dirty. The unit cannot function as intended, so do you mention that. And what about the air ducts in the attic that are damaged. They affect the unit as well.

Plumbing. How many of you report loose toilets. I see them almost every day. Potential leaks. And what about all of that funky piping under the sinks. That is a deficiency. Do you report it? How many of you actually go under the crawl space, if present, and look to see what type of pipes are under there and if there are any leaks. From my experience not too many report on this in a 4 point. I have done many an inspection after the 4 point had been done and find open cast iron pipes under the crawl and leaking drain pipes. **

**And lastly the roof. Do you report high nails, exposed nails, damaged shingles, etc. **

I had an insurance agent once tell me that you can let most of that stuff go. The insurance companies have no way of telling when something will mal-fuctinon or if and when the homeowner does some work himself and creates these problems.

Right now we are playing with fire doing these inspections, because no one knows what is expected to be in these report. Every day we hear something different. I do know that some roof certifications have been done in favor of the client and right now I know of two inspection companies being sued because the roofs had to be replaced within two months of the clients moving in. I guess time and a couple of more law suits will tell how we are to write these things. For now, all of you $75.00 guys enjoy the ride while you have it. By the way, have you ever figured out that if a client has an issue with one item on the report it will probably cost you a weeks worth of $75.00 inspections.

With the fools at Citizens the right hand never knows what the left had is doing or supposed to do.

The agents claim to ask underwriters and you will get different answers for every question asked depending on who is handling it.

I believe many times the agents or more so “the office lackeys” do not even ask the underwriters and try to interpreted things on their own.

They certainly are NOT A PLEASURE to do business with :frowning:

I believe citizens have told agents not to submit incomplete reports…some people take their jobs too seriously.

Define “incomplete report”!

In any event, I take pictures of both panels, with the covers off. I take pictures of all of the “required” items as well as others that are required on the Tower Hill form. I may also add other pictures. I have never had a 4-point “kicked back”.

If the insurance companies want certain things, I would advise everyone to find out what those things are. Why make things harder? After all, you are at the property already, what is the problem with taking a few more pictures?

As Thomas said, Some of us, take our jobs seriously.:wink:

Ditto what Eric said above. As for the OP question regarding Water Heaters TPR valve termination, it is perfectly fine for it to terminate inside the garage and not necessarily exit to exterior and really reliant on what’s accepted by the local AHJ.

Bert

Missing pics for 1, checkboxes not checked… not specifying no aluminum…

I’m talking about things I have done in the past where I thought things were self explanatory.

How about some other blunders that we have done…

Unfortunately, things aren’t always “self-explanatory”. It is why I always have my clients ask what form their insurance company wants. I think the form I have come up with which is the new Citizens form combined with the Tower Hill form, should satisfy every insurance company, with the exception of State Farm, who isn’t writing here.

I am thinking of sending my form to the OiR to make it the standard form, like the 1802. At that point, perhaps a course can be designed to eliminate any confusion as to what goes on the form.

My advice,
Answer the questions provided. It’s not a home inspection. We typicall inspect both panels.

TPR valve venting to the exterior is not a 4 point requirement. Most of the new homes we inspect do not vent to the exterior.

The absence of a TPR valve is an issue. A plugged TPR valve is an issue.

It depends on where you are located and the AHJ. Here in Broward, they are run outside. The Tower Hill form asks that specific question and on homes in Palm Beach, I write no and then an explanation that it is permitted by code to be terminated in the garage.

Can anyone give me a pdf of the Tower Hill 4pt Form? Thanks.

Send me an email and I’ll send you a fillable form.

How on earth would water from a TPR valve that is doing its job by discharging water in the event of a high pressure build up in the water heater not damage the property(garage with sloped concrete floor yes). Relying on this nuanced bit of leagalese to avoid calling that out in a four point would be wrong(not that you would do that though.

It’s really simple. You are a licensed home inspector. Inspect the four systems according to your state mandated standards of practice for home inspectors. Report anything you would report (on those four systems) just as you would if you were doing a full home inspection.