Another Reason why a Wind Mit and 4 point can not be a home inspection.
FL ST. Defines a Home Inspector as a person who provides home inspection services for a fee…
Home Inspector SOP Rule 61-30.801(1) Home inspections performed to these SOP are intended to provide the client …
Insurance companies are not my clients.
A Home Inspection is performed for the person/whatever that pays me.
My contract is with the person that pays me.
Richard Haynes
Richard - doesn’t the owner of the home pay you for the insurance inspections?
With all this discussion it has become apparent to me 2 things.
The forms themselves leave gaps to allow for grey or marginal documentation.
LOL, that declarative statement was in reference to inspectors working under a contractor requiring to be licensed indiviually…not home inspectors.
John, I believe you are refering to the OIR-1802 form and not the 4-point which requires a “Florida-licensed inspector” as stated on the from itself:
Citizens – Insp4pt 09 12 - *[size=1]4-POINT INSPECTIONS MUST BE INSPECTED AND COMPLETED BY A VERIFIABLE FLORIDA-LICENSED INSPECTOR. I CERTIFY THAT THE ABOVE STATEMENTS ARE TRUE AND CORRECT. *
[/size]
INSPECTOR REQUIREMENTS **
[FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]All inspection forms must be inspected and completed by a verifiable Florida-licensed professional. Without a verifiable, certified inspector’s dated signature, the form will not be accepted. The following [/size][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2][FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]FLORIDA-LICENSED [/size][/FONT][/size][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]individuals may complete a 4-Point Inspection for Citizens in its entirety:
[/size][/FONT][FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]Note[/size][/FONT]**[FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]: A trade-specific, licensed professional may sign off only on their trade component of the 4-Point inspection form (e.g., a roofing inspector may sign off only on the roofing portion of the form).
[/size][/FONT]A general, residential, or building contractor
A building code inspector
[FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]A registered architect
[/size][/FONT]A home inspector
A professional engineer
[FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]A building code official who is authorized by the State of Florida to verify building code compliance
[/size][/FONT]
1802 only…not a 4-point.
**CERTIFYING THE CONDITION OF EACH SYSTEM **
[FONT=Arial,Arial][size=2]The Florida-licensed inspector is required to certify the condition of the electrical, HVAC and plumbing systems. “Acceptable Condition” means that each system is working as intended and there are no visible hazards or deficiencies. [/size][/FONT]
did you inspect the structure?
are you licensed under FSS 468?
was licensure a requirement to complete the form?
did you issue a report after the inspection in written or form format?
did you charge a fee to the client?
was that form a condition or inspection format?
if not, did you send an disclosure/exclusion as required by your licensure?
How much simpler could this possibly be?
From the Internachi webiste: http://www.nachi.org/4point.htm
**Must be licensed: **
As of September 30, 2012, **"**all inspection forms must be inspected and completed by a verifiable Florida-licensed professional. Without a verifiable, certified inspector’s dated signature, the form will not be accepted. The following FLORIDA-LICENSED individuals may complete a 4-Point Inspection for Citizens in its entirety:
Note: A trade-specific, licensed professional may sign off only on their trade component of the 4-Point inspection form (e.g., a roofing inspector may sign off only on the roofing portion of the form)."
You might want to go back and read the declarative statement again, it had nothing to do with home inspections…the request was in relation to out of state inspectors performing services being required to be licensed under 468.
My last post should have been only about 4 point inspections.
My 4 point form, that I have developed over the last 10 years or so states that it is a INSURANE INSPECTION (Yes, its in all caps). I also state before the inspection and on the form that the information can not be used for State Farm and Tower Hill in obtaining insurance.
I provide the 4 points 95 percent of the time combined with a home inspection at no cost.
My fee will already be higher because of the age of the home. Most of the time my form is accepted by the insurance companies. When it is not accepted the information they want may be in the home inspection and they can provide that to the insurance companies.
I also have told my clients to have the insurance company call me/email me directly so we can discuss me doing an inspection for them and my fees/contract.
I have never used citizens or any other insurance company form in doing a 4 point. I see mine is out of date with the newer requirements.
I find it hard to believe that someone I did a 4 point for with the form stating that it is a INSURANE INSPECTION and nowhere does it say that it is a home inspection would now think that my 4 point is a home inspection.
MITIGATION INSPECTIONS.
That is a entirely different animal.
This is a form put out by a Florida government agency with no real guidance other than the form itself on how to fill-out.
I don’t see how the form passed the rules legal review requirement. There are so many problems with the form. Here’s one problem. Allowing unfair methods of competition per FL St. 501.204. Allowing Contractors and Engineers to authorize direct employees to conduct the inspection. I know this was a requirement of the Statutes. The problem is I don’t think that bills/laws are required to have legal review before passing. I’m not 100 percent sure on that one. Rules and forms are required to have legal review.
If you want something to do. Follow this form/rule through the legal process from the beginning. Was the form even put on OIR’s website during the process?
I started checking on the REQUIRED Formal Review of an agency’s rules/forms every 2 years.
The agency must among other things clarify and simplify its rules and file a report with Senate/House and Administrative Procedures Committee that they have complied.
I am so glad that they have now clarified and simplified the Mitigation Form.
Richard Haynes
If you are attaching this clarification to the form it is invalid, as your licensure states you must provide this information along with a copy of your licensed “prior to contracting for or commencing” an inspection. 4-points and 1802’s fall under the heading of “home inspection services” which is clearly defined in the statutes and administrative code. The stautes that apply are 468.8321 and 61-30604(c), I’m not posting thena again as I have already done so numerous times. It is resonable to assume 48 hours is the minimum allowance for disclosure/exclusion. It’s funny that some attach a “clarification title” to the form, then say 468 and 61-30 don’t apply when they are the only things attached to your license that give you the ability to disclose or exclude.
It really doesn’t matter where you copied your form from, or if you didn’t copy it. When push comes the shoove and it’s a $30,000 claim the insurance company wants to deny due to what they consider false information, guess who’s on the hook?
For once we agree, I also have no idea how this form(1802) passed. It is riddled with inaccuracies and violations of code, it’s not worth the paper it’s written on. When you consider that it’s nothing more than a transfer of liability…who needs to sign that? Not me! I am very well versed on the history of mitigation inspections starting back in the early 90’s when they were shutter verification forms. Recently, I was invloved in a very detailed discusion involving some of the forms designers and contributors…not one person could agree on it’s intent or liability. That was enough for me, the lawyers and attorneys will decide.
Recently, a home inspector lost a case where he filled out a wind mitigation with a home insption where he missed multiple itmes including a bad roofing system. His defense was he wasn’t required to comment on code, the judge ruled that because he signed a 1802 verifying “code complaince” as stated on the form that he was in fact required to know code. He lost! Think about that for a second, the 1802 was used against him for a non-1802 issue to attach guilt. That’s telling…
Anyone on this forum can say whatever opinion they want, in the end the statutes and administrative code apply. don’t take my word for it, call your lawyer…see what he says.
You crack me up, the question was do they need a home inspector’s license.
In the dictionary under redundant is says “see redundant”…
Wrong. I bet you are the only one that thinks like this. Who are you?
I’m not alone in this thought.
We can settle all of this easily, call your attorney and ask him/her to review your license and the inspections you perform with it. Ask him/her if you can be held liable to your standards and statutes with those forms.
We all know the answer…
I know the biggest insurance inspection companies have had almost zero lawsuit judgements from insurance inspections. I have done thousands …lost count years ago, zero lawsuits. I do agree there is liability when inexperienced people doing any inspection .
As far as low price, most insurance inspection companies do large volume,multi inspectors, so they can charge less. If you only do a few a week, you cannot be competitive, we used to be ancillary inspections, now home inspectors have to do them, so we all do home inspections too.
Lets assume you are correct in your interpretation of statutes relating to insurance inspections. As licensed contractors (Div. 1 of course) do not have any standards of practice with respect to inspections in their statutes, rules, declaratory statements, edicts, etc…, to what standards would they be held accountable to for insurance related inspections ( assume that they do not also hold a home inspector license for this scenario)?
Statutes 455 and 489, respectively.
The stautes are what they are, I’m not interpreting anything. Settle this real quick like, just call your attornay and ask them if you are held accountable to your license statutes and administrative code while performing inspections with that license?
If you didn’t have the required license, could you perform the inspection?
And Bill was right earlier, you will be held accountable to your highest license…
Mr. Sheppard, Citizens insurance corporation is an insurance company with a quasi governmental organizational structure (as I am sure you know). The citizens’ 4 point inspection form and requirements with respect to who can complete the form are simply company policies. It would appear that you are trying to “muddy the waters” in an effort to support your position.