AFCI at bedrooms on new construction?

Actually if the AFCI is done correctly and the Smokes are wired correctly then it should be a MOOT point if the fire still starts…the Smokes will still do their intended job…Not sure how long a circuit in a bedroom would have to be out for a home owner to not notice their lights or TV’s are not functioning properly.

I have to be totally honest here…I simply do NOT see the many faults people are claiming on AFCI’s…everything had its issued much like GFCI did in the early stages…and trust me I am one of those early electricians who said AFCI would not last…but I am wrong it will last…

Any advancement that proposes to make things safer I am for, I think having the smokes on their own circuit is fine also but I think if it enters into the bedroom as it does it should be on AFCI…thats my opinion and it just happens to also be the NFPA and NEC’s feelings…amazing that we agree on something…lol

anyway…as for a 10A breaker…this would not be a standard size and based on 240.6 would require quite a bit of work around that I would figure it is easier to modify the code versus modifying the terms of the manufacturers that make the breakers…now fuses maybe…

Anyway…I hear ya…I just happen to know I install about 500 AFCI breakers a year…now I am rounding a bit…might be a few dozen less…but my point is…to date not a single trouble trip…

I honestly think todays AFCI’s are worthy…and they will only get better…besides in a older home HI’s should not bring up the AFCI issue…but again I LIKE the idea of putting them in homes dating in the 70’s and 80’s personally…I wont go into why…lol

I just do not see a big deal regarding it personally…in my industry the older electricians moan and groan about it because they are not up on technology and do not trust AFCI…well they said the same thing about GFCI…same old song and dance…

Personally…if the Smoke Detector is functioning correctly and wired correctly regardless of being on an AFCI circuit…it will function as it is intended…and the AFCI circuit wont be down long…

I wish you would go into why.

Do you think that home inspectors also should not bring up GFCI on older homes?

Who determines what qualifies as an older home?

I don’t disciminate based on age. :smiley:

And isn’t it just a matter of putting in a couple of new breakers for the bedroom circuits? Am I missing something?

lol…I did not want to dwell into an issue that is already a debated topic RR…the reason I like AFCI’s in 70’s and 80’s homes…is because they are closer to todays wiring standards and stand to gain from AFCI’s because of a lack of standards in those eras…while it has caught up and obviously older homes could stand to gain as well…I just happen to focus on that era in my lectures to the apprentice program…

lol…last I checked age was not a protected discrimiate act against homes…thehehehe…

well on the matter of the breaker itself…also depends on the panel and if the AFCI will fit in it…once they come out with the GFCI/AFCI receptacle it really wont matter…they have one…just not selling it on the market yet.

Remember RR…I am also a HI…not just an Electrician…Most certainly I recommend GFCI in all cases in old homes…the AFCI is just not as easy to fit into the picture on older homes at this time…once a unit is out that works more on the local level then most certainly…BUT again it will be debated…I am for anything that saves lives…

I’ve really got you laughing this morning, don’t I?

Isn’t there a GE GFCI/AFCI combo breaker on the market right now?

Paul, I agree with the advantages and protection AFCI devices are intended to provide, and any issues will likely be worked out. I just tend to think there are good reasons that fire alarm systems are not permitted to be connected to GFCI or AFCI devices per 760 of the NEC, and that interconnected/hardwired smoke alarms on dedicated circuits that feed only the smoke alarms should be treated as a fire alarm system.

JMO and 2-nickels … :wink:

lol…naw to be honest with you I think the value of this board is expanded when topics like this come up…people LEARN when things are asked and commented on…so while I am laughing AT you…I am Laughing WITH YOU…RR…lol…

I was speaking more towards the Receptacle version…that would lend itself to work better in older homes since the panels would have an issue with todays breakers…

AFCI circuit breakers are not required by the NEC to be dual-listed (AFCI/GFI or AFCI/GFCI). Nevertheless, all four U.S. manufacturers include ground fault circuitry and Cutler-Hammer has chosen to dual-list their devices.

UL-certified circuit breaker combines arc-fault circuit interrupter (AFCI) and ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) protection in a single device, eliminating the need to install two devices and reducing installation time. The AFCI technology detects and clears electrical arcs that can result from damaged wiring while the GFCI protects against electrical shock.
Cutler-Hammer/Eaton
For more information, visit www.Cutler-Hammer.com.

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]**Application Data **

  • FIRE-GUARD AFCI circuit breakers can be applied to all residential, commercial and industrial 15 and 20 ampere, 120/240V AC applications utilizing a loadcenter approved for use with Cutler-Hammer Type CH or BR circuit breakers.
  • FIRE-GUARD AFCI circuit breakers are to be applied in applications where you want to reduce the risk of electrical fires caused by electrical arcing, as well as protect conductors from overcurrents and short circuits.
  • The single-pole FIRE-GUARD AFCI breaker is applied in single-phase 120V AC applications. The two-pole common trip FIRE-GUARD AFCI breaker is applied in three-wire 120/240V AC three-wire circuits and 240V AC circuits sourced by 120/240V AC.
  • The two-pole independent trip FIRE-GUARD AFCI breaker is applied in 120V AC multi-wired circuits utilizing a shared neutral (often referred to as a home-run circuit).
  • The FIRE-GUARD AFCI/GFCI breaker can be used when AFCI and 5 mA GFCI protection is required.
  • The FIRE-GUARD AFCI can be used in conjunction with a downstream GFCI device such as a receptacle or ground fault relay.
  • All FIRE-GUARD AFCI type breakers are HACR rated.
  • All FIRE-GUARD AFCI 15 and 20 ampere breakers are SWD rated.Reduce the Risk of Electrical Fires

[/FONT]

this is all really cool info!

NOW…Brandon…that is what we EDUCATORS love to hear…and guess what…you can only get it on the NACHI boards…tehehehhe

No, it hasn’t been pushed back. The '06 CBC will adopt the IRC. Any permits aquired prior to that will be built per the existing UBC within the CBC. You may have homes completed in '07 that are still built to 1997 UBC standards even though the '06 CBC has adopted the '06 IRC. You still following :smiley: ?

In '05, the CBC adopted the 2002 NEC. So you can see, transition takes a bit of time. Since the '06 IRC is be based on the '05 NEC, we should be vaulted a bit closer to the rest of the country.

You’re gonna drive me to drinking. :shock:

I thought most building departments in CA had adopted the 2001 UBC over its predessor the 1997 UBC. I believe the UBC is currently out of print and will be phased out once CA wakes up and adopts the I-CODES.

Amendments were made in 2001 to the 1997 UBC where some more-current codes were adopted such as the 1999 NEC. The ammended version was called the 2001 CBC, however, it was still heavily based on the 1997 UBC.

here is something I found googling:
What is an AFCI?..
Starting January 1, 2002, The National Electrical Code , Section 210-12, requires that all branch circuits supplying 125V, single phase, 15 and 20 ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms be protected by an arc-fault Circuit interrupter. Eventually they will be in more areas but the NEC selected to require them on bedroom circuits first because a CPSC study showed many home fire deaths were related to bedroom circuits.
The AFCI (Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter) breaker, will shut off a circuit in a fraction of a second if arcing develops. The current inside of an arc is not always high enough to trip a regular breaker. You must have noticed a cut or worn piece of a cord or a loose connection in a junction box or receptacle arcing and burnt without tripping the regular breaker. As you can guess this is a major cause of fires in a dwelling.
There is a difference between AFCIs and GFCIs. AFCIs are intended to reduce the likelihood of fire caused by electrical arcing faults; whereas, GFCIs are personnel protection intended to reduce the likelihood of electric shock hazard. Don’t misunderstand, GFCIs are still needed and save a lot of lives.
Combination devices that include both AFCI and GFCI protection in one unit will become available soon. AFCIs can be installed in any 15 or 20 ampere branch circuit in homes today and are currently available as circuit breakers with built-in AFCI features. In the near future, other types of devices with AFCI protection will be available.
If a GFCI receptacle is installed on the load side of an AFCI it is possible for both the AFCI and the GFCI to trip on a fault if the current exceeds the limit for both devices. It is also possible for the AFCI to trip and the GFCI to not trip since the two devices could race each other. However, in no case is safety compromised.
At first the cost for AFCI will be high. Expect to pay between $20 and $50 for each AFCI. The cost is expected to drop as much more are ordered.

Code Section 210-12
(a) Definition: An arc-fault circuit interrupter is a device intended to provide protection from the effects of arc faults by recognizing characteristics unique to arcing and by functioning to de-energize the circuit when an arc fault is detected. (b) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter(s). This requirement shall become effective November 1, 2002.

Remember that your jurisdiction must have adopted the 2002 NEC, and your AHJ must be enforcing it.

I don’t believe that New Jersey is requiring AFCI installations!

John

John…are you saying they are working on a earlier NEC than atleast 1999?..1999 NEC actually started the mandate IF the NEC was adopted and the refered edition to compliance.

What NEC is adopted in your area?

I’m not quite sure. Builder’s assoc. put up a fight here, and they are not being required as of yet.

John

I believe NJ is also on a 2000 IRC based residential code, which does not require AFCI devices in 1/2 family homes … similar to NY.

Does it not refer to an edition of the NEC in those IRC documents and if so which NEC is prevailing at this time.

The IRC (and a state code based on it, unless modified) is a unique type of building code for common residential work, which is a “stand-alone” code that includes all basic code provisions for 1/2 family homes and townhouses (e.g. general, structure, energy, mechanical, gas, plumbing, and electrical code requirements). It does not require you to go to any of the other codes or standards (e.g. IBC or NEC) unless specifically stated.

2000 IRC Section E3802 on GFCI and AFCI protection requirements does not require any AFCI protection, and does not directly reference the NEC, so it’s not required. Of course, you are permitted to go to the NEC and install them to exceed the IRC requirements, but it’s not mandatory.

The IRC was changed in 2002 to add Section E3802.11 (not in the 2000 IRC) which requires AFCI protection for all bedroom outlets.