Sounds like you were being shown a Peltier device. If that’s the case, it certainly not new technology and definitely not “magic”. Thermoelectric cooling - Wikipedia. My refrigerator has one in it for the rapid chill and defrost drawer.
This has all of the characteristics of a scam. Please be careful.
I agree with Chuck
Peltier devices are really cool. The first one I saw was used to keep lab samples cool about 6 years ago.
You see them in consumer products as things like car six pack coolers.
There is no free lunch guys.
I agree with you Chuck. I have heard about this type of system before, but I have never gotten to see one in action. The principle is there to work, but at what cost to make it happen? Yes you are right Mike, to appoint on it not being a free lunch for the builder of these units. Be lets also remember that all things can and will be improved on with today technology. Only time and testing will tell. And of course, NO money from me up front until I get to do a extensive test on it.
This is not a Peltier device. There are a lot of doubting Thomases out there and I was one of them. A Peltier device can’t make baby powder dissapear or produce a 58 F split in a heat cycle. A Peltier uses much more energy than the machine I saw. Do you know of a Peltier that uses only 2.5 amps?
I still have a lot of questions after I saw the unit last weekend, actually more. I was part of a 3 judge panel of HVAC contractors. I didn’t know until just yesturday that we were there to judge a bet. I was invited by a friend of mine in the business to judge the performance of the machine. He nor I was aware that when we all agreed the claims made by Paul on a sheet presented to us it meant his company would win $7,500 from a losing party that was in attendance. I have not talked to the third judge since then and I do not know him, but he agrred with my friend and I.
The test was done in a shop behind an office that was about 1000 sq ft. The inside temp was 38 F/53% humidity with the central gas pack turned off when the demo was started. It took just 48 minutes for their machine, the Air QERV, to bring the temo up to 74F and drop the humidity down to 31%. It held the temp for the next hour we were there. The humidity never fluctuaded more than a couple of points either way. It never pulled more than 2.5 amps, 275 watts!
There were two jusdges in attendance that were IAQ experts. They were working completely independant of us 3. They stayed behind after us 3 left. I do not know what their findings were but they must have been favorable for the company to win the challenge and the $$. The air did appear to be very fresh.
We were instructed to look inside the machine and the building to verify there was not another heat source. We then had to fill out a half page questioneer then left immediately after we each completed it. I was told at the same time I learned what we were really doing there that the company plans on doing more of these challenges around the country soon. There were two camera men filming this the entire time we were there. I have no idea what they paln to do with the footage. Each of us “judges” were interviewed briefly on camera just as we exited the building. We all thought we were there to give our expert opinions.
These guys are clever. They also have a tiger by the tail. I don’t know any details of further such bets or challenges but maybe some of you would like to put up some $ and challenge them.
Well Mr. Jim,
I have been sitting quietly watching, waiting, reading, and listening.
First of all, concerning other comments posted, I have not heard anything about these guys out looking for investors. Marketers, yes.
From descriptions this is a thermoelectric principal.
DC, makes hot, reverse and makes cold. (I’m still watching…)
The filter thing has nothing to do with the heater/cooler.
I have known of filters that will remove smoke from the air (very small). Bigger stuff, not a problem (such as baby powder).
If I came on here with just psychrometric theory, it would skip over heads.
I can see these guys trying to make it a trip to OZ, so it can be understood. It certainly will not be understood through and explanation of psychrometrics.
Speaking of Psychrometrics! Jim, the numbers you gave make no sense to me!
When you add heat to 38F air at 53% rh raising it to 74F (without adding moisture to the air), this is a sensible heat process. The rh would be expected to be in the 15% range.
Your telling me it was 31% rh.
You would have to add 25 grains of water per pound of air to get to 31% rh.
Please explain this.
You may have a great new machine there, but you don’t have the right numbers, and I do not see your 17 years of HVAC showing through.
No it can’t and you should know that. Can it produce a 58 split, you don’t know that either.
You should know that what happens in the room air has nothing to do with process evaluation. You should be taking your measurements at the unit. And next time, don’t use relative humidity! That is way too inaccurate. Use the other option, you know what that is!?
If anyone wants someone to evaluate this thing in that company, call me and send me the airbus fair. They will make it up in their betting games.
I was told the system uses technology that is is similair to air-to-water devices that take the elements in the air to make moisture if more was needed and when there is too much it breaks it down and turns it into air. I saw no drainage or supply lines not was there a drip pan.
I have no frame of reference on this but have found a lot on the net since. There are a lot of aspects of this machine that are impossible. The same could be said of a lot of technologies. We in the business I think are at a dissadvantage in some ways as we have certain experiences carved into our minds, ruts, that can make it difficult to accept something like this. Like I have said before, I hae more questions now than before I put my gauges onto it.
The filter was explained to me but I would try to attempt to explain it myself as it is a complete departure from conventional filtration. I have a gut feeling that many of us making our livings within the HVAC business will be left in the dust by this thing becuase of our own ruts. I read that another blogger on this site, has been invited to test the unut in OH. It may be another bet where you are the judge. If that is the case you are in for some kind of experience.
David, you are right about my experience not shining through. I count my years of faithful service and always trying to be at the leading edge to be of little use here. Paul and his team know that and are just having fun at their critic’s expense. That’s by opinion. They know what they have even if we do not. There is little in the HVAC arena that would help explain how this works. We can only compare the performance of the Air Qerv to what we know. The comparrison is like a putting a dog next to an elephant. They are both mamals, but entirely differnt animals.
Magic is only an illusion.
Keep that in mind when evaluating physics defying products.
Remember the “Cold Fusion” scam of 20 years ago?
Have the advancements in our industry mirror the level of advancements in others like planes, defence, medicine, etc.,? No, the HVAC industry has not kept pace with others in the way of development. Why are we so quick to believe graet breakthroughs can’t happen within our business?
To be so closed minded is a clear sign of silly pride and fear. I’m still not convinced I saw what I saw, but boy am I hopeful. I have trouble sleeping since. Look outside of our bow and see what is developing all around us. We are fools to think such breakthrough wouldn’t happen to us.
Be hopeful and wait and see before you reveal how much of a fool you are until you have a chance to evaluate this. There has been no solicitation for money yet.
To be skeptical of wild claims based on an unknown technology is hardly foolish.
For you to come here and try to convince us of this “magic” (their word not mine) without a reasonable explanation as to how it works is more than I am willing to blindly accept.
This has to be the strangest roll out of a promised game changing device that I have ever seen.
I hope it actually works as it would be a true paradigm shift in energy utilization but let’s just say I am not holding my breath.
Good luck to you.
Just found the answer to this magical machine over on the Electric thread:
Originally Posted by jwilliams4 http://nachi.cachefly.net/forum/images/2006/buttons/viewpost.gif
There was a sharpy salesman in this area many years ago that would condemn an electrical system because “it had too many purent (sic) homotrons affecting the system’s operation”.
I never did find out what a “purent homotron” might be, but I sure don’t want “too many” in my electrical system.
They must be what what makes the Air Q.E.R.V. work and be so energy efficient!!!
No one is trying to convince you of anything. I had one introduction and have shared my experience. At some point all of us will get to size this up extensively if the company stays on track. I’m only dissapointed that my fellow HVAC guys are shooting this down and largely have a closed mind. Voice concerns, share your thoughts on it. The ones that are calling this a scam without any evidence to support that claim are frankly foolish.
I’ve heard of this product. Most effective heating and cooling technology known to man with very little energy required. You can actually take exact readings if you have the proper equipment. Currently the only known way to measure the exact energy savings is with the Madoff Heater Meter. You can trust Bernie. He worked for years on this instrument…:shock:
Mr. Raines,
I think that is exactly what you are trying to do but that aside, I have an idea.
Why don’t you contact Paul and ask him to come to this forum and respond to the concerns raised here.
As this forum is showing up on Google searches:
Search term: Air Q.E.R.V.
I would think Paul would want to come here and explain to thousands of home inspectors and other interested public, the viability of his product.
I will say again.
I hope this technology is real and usable and fulfills all the claims that have been made for it as I would buy one myself. :shock:
I also hope that this product as real. I would love to be a distributor when it hits the market.
With the number of home inspectors associated with the housing market in with a marketing background, websites in place[FONT=Tahoma][size=2], he would need to look no further for a marketing force.
[/size][/FONT]You must understand that he must leave those “fluffy words” behind and speak specifically to those that are educated in the past theory and how his new theory was derived and theoretically operates as proposed[FONT=Tahoma][size=2].
[/size][/FONT]Ben Kelly purchased a new type of infrared heater and we dissected that device here on [FONT=Tahoma][size=2]NACHI. It wasn’t all the hocus-pocus purported in the marketing material, and it does not get more than 3.413 BTUs per watt. But it does heat more efficiently when viewed by the parameters of “comfort” (thus reducing the overall consumption).
[/size][/FONT]We determined that it is a good emitter that heats objects better at the floor rather than a hot stream of air going straight up to the ceiling where it is useless and providing comfort to those 28 inches off the floor[FONT=Tahoma][size=2]. Less air temperature stratification occurs in the room, as evident by their thermal imaging.
In concept, if you use your BTUs more wisely, you can reduce consumption.
[/size][/FONT]As has been mentioned several times[FONT=Tahoma][size=2], new technology is always evolving. Old concepts can be improved with better materials, and could make them the answer to our energy woes!
However, the information being passed around is a little bit too far out into space and goes against Tesla and Einstein. Creating humidity through molecular components in the air (which means combining hydrogen and oxygen to make water vapor to the notify the air, all this from 1/4 inch plates!?).
No condensate drains? I can only assume that we are now breaking down the water to the hydrogen and oxygen molecular level?
HVAC equipment is about transferring heat from one location to another. You must absorb it and reject it to a location that’s not obtrusive to your comfort. One side of the plate is hot and the other side is cold. You need to get rid of the heat somehow. Remember the old adage “energy cannot be created or destroyed”? You have to do something with it.
These are the questions that we need answered.
To expect the entire scientific world to change their perspective and throwaway the theory of thermodynamics is a little bit over the top. Asking for this “leap of Faith” requires a little bit more information and credibility.
They have a patent, several of them in fact. Why can’t they disclose information at this point?
[/size][/FONT]
Here is the link I was given to explain the science that drives their machine http://www.davisgreenenergy.com/. This is along the lines of what Tesla worked on, not Eistien. Eistien was financially backed by Rockerfeller who said he was not interested in any machine that he could not put a meter on. Eistien did not work on zero point energy devices because of his backer where as Tesla was backed by Westinghouse. The two camps were enemies.
As for their pace in releasing additional information I was told we could all expect more to come once they file a couple more patents. There was scientist at the same staging I was. I assume it was his first introduction to the device like me. He said current laws were not violated, rather they have now been expanded upon.
I’d keep checking thier website for their tour stops that are coming up. Paul sid they will show their device off to all that come. I think once enough people have had a chance to see this perform up close and put their meters and gauges to it we then will have a much more intelligent discussion.
Agreed
Can’t wait too long though! 
Well it appears to work to me, but im only in the Hvacr Business.
and although its directed towards the consumer with magic type markerters as always, what can anyone expect from those in the marketing business.
its like a yellow page ads rep, they know more about your business than you do, and they will justify it with some competitor that been in business for over 35 years,
and the father just retired or the name was bought with the company.
gotta balance those skeptisms.
it would be trying to quantify a clean air purifier or water filer that removes smoke and non potable water.
yet its been done.