AL wiring to 220 circut

Originally Posted By: dhartke
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Is AA-8000 Aluminum compatible with terminals on switches, receptacles, etc? Or should we look for a rating to accept the AA-8000? Granted, it’s not likely to be found in the small wiring, but in general it would be helpful to know if it has limitations or is it completely interchangeable with copper?


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mike,


Neither the inspector, or the electrician could know what is on that circuit. I would rather err on the side of the client.

By having the circuit checked you are ensuring that you client will not be harmed, either financially or physically. I believe it would be best to explain the situation to the client so they know exactly why you want it checked.

I, for one, would rather open my mouth now and be thought a fool, than leave it shut and let my ego and stupidy prove me a fool. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Mike Parks wrote:
If he calls a double on a Square D breaker 99% of the time he will look foolish.

Maybe not. Depends on the breaker size, type, and the install. The standard SQ-D 10A-30A breakers have separate terminations for two wires per breaker which is allowed (also listed for that), but not the larger ones. That also assumes that it was installed correctly. But the SQ-D 10A-30A GFCI/AFCI breakers are only good/listed for one wire.

I see Joe's point, which isn't about the smaller standard SQ-D breakers being "safe" (or code compliant) with 2 wires correctly connected. I think his point is that it could be considered poor practice to do that. Two circuits on one breaker may have a tendency to cause nuisance trips on that breaker, that Harry Homeowner may try to "fix" himself. Like maybe install a larger breaker, maybe even with a truly unsafe double lug ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

I would just list that as a "concern" or make a note of that, so they are aware that it might be poor practice depending on whats connected to that circuit ... and if the breaker starts tripping they need to call a sparky. But others (like Joe) may see that as something which should be worded stronger. I think that a judgement call, even though I tend to agree with you that it's not such a big issue.

Anatol ... check out these topics so ya know what Mike and Joe are talking about ...

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=2132
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=927
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=2410

Dave ... The devices/terminals still have to be listed for use with that AL wire (no marking means CU only). The links above have more about that.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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What I was trying to say is that the most common miscall on a “double” tap is made on a Square D QO 15 amp breaker.


As far as what is on a breaker is outside the visual inspection.

I am trying to be nice here: Commenting on missing connectors damaged or unsecured wires and the like are within the qualifications of a home inspector. Commenting on manufacture's specs and code related violations is entering the ESI profession. I am not saying do not do it I am saying you better be damn sure of what you state. If your electrical skills are lower than you think they should be stick with the obvious, look for poor workmanship IE the examples that I gave above.

A HI is not expected to be an electrician or an ESI. Can you say something like " I have seen this before and I would have an electrician look at this". Rather than this is wrong.

I just want you to CYA.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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I don’t think anyone here is talking about quoting manufacturer’s specs or calling anything a code violation, and those discussions are for our own edification. I agree it may not be wrong or a big deal, but it may be a concern depending on whats connected to that circuit.


That evaluation is beyond an HI, and something that maybe an electrical professional should look at if there is a concern about whats connected to that breaker. So calling for a sparky to check that out may not be such a bad idea, just maybe for the wrong reasons (maybe) ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

There are sometimes different shades of grey on what may appear to be black and white issues.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Mike,


I of course would be assuming the Anatol knows you can double tap some breakers. Even in the case of calling out the double taps he should go by his gut instincts and have it checked out by a professional, he certainly did the right thing and if I were his client I would be very happy to have him as my inspector.

You of course are assuming that if the breaker is capable of handling two wires it is ok. This is an example, rather extreme in nature but still possible. No, I have never seen or heard of this happening but the possibility is still real.

As you know the QO series breakers are capable of two wires per breaker. Take a double pole 30 amp breaker and connect two clothes dryers to it, using #10 copper wire. As long as both dryers are not running at the same time you should be ok, correct?

How about if you run the two kitchen small appliance circuits on a single pole 20 amp QO series breaker.

I have found in the case of double taps on a single breaker, most people are not aware what is on that breaker whether it is lights, receptacles, the sump pump, refrigerator, dishwasher or anything else. I would highly doubt that the person which actually installed the double tap, knows what is actually on the circuit as typically it is done when someone realizes they ran out of space or did not have enough breakers.

When there is ample room in the panel for breakers, you can bet that I am going to call out double taps, that is a given. There is absolutely no reason to have double taps in a panel with plenty of room, it is just asking for trouble.

Anatol,

Hopefully, you are a better inspector now that you did ask the right questions. It certainly will not hurt to have the anti oxidant compound on the wire, so have them put it on. The double tap is also questionable depending what is on those two wires. The big problem with the new 8000 series aluminum is that nothing is marked, so as an inspector you don't know which aluminum you have. It certainly won't hurt to have them add the anti oxidant compound.

The best advice anyone could give to you is to stand your ground. You called it for your own reasons. If someone else is willing to put it in writing that it is ok, you are humble enough to bow to the king and walk away with a clear conscience. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: dhartke
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Thanks Robert. It must be rated for AL before any type of AL wire is connected to it.



Robert or anyone with the answer,

I have heard that one should use a "x" brand breaker with a "x" brand panel. Is this a NEC rule or is it simply for foolproof compatibility between breaker and panel? looking at the bottom of different brands of breakers some appear to have the same "lock in" design and dimensions. It looks like one could solve the problem of a full panel with double taps by substituting a double tap rated breaker into a different manufacturer panel.
Just curious. As an HI I simply flag the double tap.


Dave


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Dave,


You should use the same maker of breakers as for the panel. There is no code which would prevent you from do so and many manufacturers make breakers that are interchangable with other manufacturers. You should be aware that although many are interchangable, not all breakers are made to the same specifications.

Instead of replacing the breakers with ones rated for double taps, at the very least you should recommend replacing them with twin style breakers.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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While we / I used to use what ever breaker fit when I started in the trade this has changed.


This is considered a 110.3(B) issue.

Quote:
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


What this means is you may only use breakers listed on the panel cover or UL classified breakers that have the panel model number on them.

The panel makers will not warranty their panels when these UL classified breakers are used.

Some electrical inspectors do not want to accept any breakers not listed on the panel cover UL classified or not.

As a EC the best thing to do is use the breakers that are made by the panel maker no issues then.

For more on this follow this link.

Classified Breakers?


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: dhartke
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob,


Thanks for the link and advice. The way I read it sounds like it’s not so much a safety or function issue but more of a warranty and code thing. As an HI I’m not extremely worried about warranty or code, but I expect most codes to be based on safety, and minimum requirement safety at that.



Joe,
You're right. The twin style breaker would be a better choice. Diagnosing a problem would be easier with the twins. Recommend it? Not this HI, but I wouldn't hesitate to install it for myself if needed, but I have plenty of room in my panels.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob B,


I certainly am not trying to rain on your parade but the listing and labeling shows which of the manufacturers breakers can be installed in a panel.

For instance, if you take the Murray panel that I have in my basement, the listing and labeling on that panel tells you which Murray breakers you should use for that panel. It does not state on that panel you can not use other manufacturers breakers of equal value. The way I am looking at that labeling is so that the installer knows which series of breakers should be used for that panel, kind of like your automobile manufacturer telling you that this is an automobile that uses unleaded gasoline and you should use one that is at least XX octane.

Just because you place a Siemens breaker in a Murray panel would not void the written warranty which Murray offered unless the defect was found to be in the Siemens breaker. In the case the Siemens breaker was defective you would have to go back to Siemens for their warranty. Of course Murray was not offering warranties on other manufacturers products, no one does. That would be like taking your Chevy back to a ford dealer for warranty repairs.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: rpalac
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Joe,


This is what I’m talking about.


It's good we can express these issues and maybe we can educate each other. How many people don't do this and react inappropriately making rules that don't exist.

RED FLAG IT!!! I'm the dictator around here.....(don't you get a kick out of how some one can use a little information to make RULES and LAW's or CODES that don't really exist...)

My work is done...I've ruffled enough feathers for the day...time to back to school for more classes.

Bob P.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob P,


I have always found Bob B to be sincere in his efforts to help others. I don't think he meant any ill will, just gave some of us more information so we can think for ourselves.

When you are an electrician you should be using your mind on a daily basis and sometimes you just have to step back and say I know that I can do this (since it is perfectly ok with the codes) but rather should I be doing it this way! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Since I am familiar with construction, remodeling and even electrical there has been many times in my life when I got to thinking after I was finished that I could have done it better by doing it another way.

Thinking is not an option when your choice of careers is electricity, it is mandatory. If you are not thinking when you are working, you or others could die.

I like Bob B and Mike P because even though they tend to be extreme they make me think about what I do and more importantly what I say to others, especially my clients. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Joe,


Also, Bob B. was, I think, referring to the Classified breakers in his 110.3(B) code reference.

Someplace recently (another thread here perhaps?) there was a link to the UL White Book listing for the Classified breakers. They may ONLY be used where the AIC is limited to 10,000 or less.

Anyone know what the typical rating for the typical residential service is? Is it less than 10,000 or greater than 10,000?

If not less than 10,000, then you could not use the Classified breakers on the typical residential service.

I say "typical" because you'd probably have to look at the transformer ratings, etc., but I'm sure one of our sparkies has done that before (I haven't). What say you ... Mike P., Bob B., Bob P., Joe T., etc.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Jerry,


Most are 10,000. Siemens used to be 22,000 standard for the QP series but was changed sometime in the past. I am pretty sure the SD QO series is another.

Anyway, that is the one thing that I know to check when I see mixed breakers. I check both the main and the branch breakers.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: rpalac
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I check the interupting rateing as well. If your branches are rated higher than yuour main the Main will trip first. I had a situation where thats exactly what caused a problem of nuesance main trips down town. I trouble shot it and came up with that and haven’t had a problem since. It is an easy thing to over lok though.


Joe,
I have a difficult way of expressing myself at times and come accross as belittleing to some. I love the electrical thread because it is my livlyhood for years on end. The information on hear ins excellent by all whoi contribute. Yes, we all make errors every now and then. We believe that some things are a specific way and then we talk about it and hopefully get it staight.

My point I was trying to make was that very often peopl ( nto any specific) make comments and everyone thinks its Gospel when in fact its not. The breaker thing happens to be one of them. I kjnow exactly the code section he is refering to and I don't believe that it is being interpreted correctly again.

There are a lot of super knowledgable people on here like Chad, Bob b.Rocconor, Mike P. yourself and many I haven't mentioned.

I guess I just open my big mouth to often with out thinking when I get my hairs up over redundant issues.

The code is a difficult item to master. I spent the first five years on a code panel learning the code and tryinhg to become well versed in it back in 78 to 84. It changes enough in the three year incraments that you need six to figuer out what they said.By then it has been changed agian. An example is since the 79 code look to see how GFI's change every code release.

The breaker thing has also changed many times.

I'm bushed gotta hit the hay. Working on five hour of sleep in two days.
Later
bob p.


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jerry


The local utilities will usually state what the max amps they guaranty are for a residential or commercial application.

To an above question: Square D main is 22,000. The breakers in the panel are 10,000.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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jmyers wrote:
Bob B,

I certainly am not trying to rain on your parade but the listing and labeling shows which of the manufacturers breakers can be installed in a panel.

For instance, if you take the Murray panel that I have in my basement, the listing and labeling on that panel tells you which Murray breakers you should use for that panel. It does not state on that panel you can not use other manufacturers breakers of equal value.


Joe follow the link I provided and I think you can see as far as I am concerned the breakers are interchangeable, we always used different breakers.

That was until flyer's where put up in the supply houses stating that you may not do that any longer.

The reason was they where not listed for use on the cover which in turn meant you where violating 110.3(B)


Quote:
110.3(B) Installation and Use. Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.


The only time I got called on this was when I was using a 200 amp single phase challenger panel for a job temp panel.

I had some other breakers in it and the electrical inspector made me get breakers that where classified for use in that panel as Challenger ones where unavailable.

So you are not raining on my parade, ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif) the inspector rained on my parade.

Right now in the panel in my house I probably have breakers from four different companies.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bob B,


One of the biggest problems with the codes is that they are all open to individual interpretation and in your case it would be a mute point, since I don't know of any manufacturer that would recommend you replace parts in their products with products from other manufacturers.

My interpretation of that particular code would be more from a standpoint that you are using say indoor products indoor and not outside. You are using explosion proof enclosures in the proper environments. ETC....

The fact would remain that if you use another manufacturers parts, that would not in itself void the warranty. The manufacturer would still have to honor their original parts in accordance with the offered warranty. It would be up to them to prove that the other parts caused a failure of their product. Not too easily done.

Bob P,

That is ok, I understand. I have bad hair days monday thru sunday, 7am to midnight. ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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At least you have enough hair to have a bad hair day, Joe.