Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jerry,
These are the reasons that AFCI protection is under review at this time. This is the reason that groups such as the NY Board of Fire Underwriters are looking at the plusses and minuses of forcing the use of this technology. This is the reason that ISO, who does the majority of insurance actuarials, has been asked to review all the available data, from a practical, financial, safety, and risk management standpoint.
Truth is, that NFPA is really re-thinking this at this time...
-- Joe Farsetta
Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."
Originally Posted By: jsavino This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
As far as I’m concerned, I’m not going to recommend them. I’ll tell the client to call a licensed electrical contractor to inspect the panel further.
I'm not the "code master". I feel reciting codes to a client is dangerous, implying that I am are an expert. If and when it becomes code, then I will mention it, and call for a licensed electrical contractor to inspect the panel.
Originally Posted By: janderson This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
A lot of fire investigators will explain to you how wrong you are. MANY fires start as a result of arcs off these circuits, even arcs from the lowly lamp cord cause fires.
Funny you should mention that, I just attended an arson investigation conference (I also work as a fire investigator for a municipality) and we talked in depth about the popular fall-back position to blame the fire on ignition of combustibles by an electric arc. The following is a statement from a forensic electrical engineer who spoke in great detail about electrical arcs, "The brilliant white light of the arc with its pyrotechnic aura and 5,000 degree temperature makes it a popular visual effect for movies and television. However, movies and television are not real life. The fact of the matter is that below *375 volts, the arc created by shorting electrical wires together lasts approximately 8 milliseconds and has a limited amount of heat that makes it a poor ignitor of combustibles. Therefore, arcs created in the 120/240 volt electrical system found in residences are also poor sources of ignition." *Kaufman, R.H and Page, J.C (1960) Arcing fault protection for the low-voltage power distribution system-nature of the problem. pp160-167
Quote:
I also guess that you have never seen a lamp cord, with a broken conductor inside, sitting there smoldering either, have you? Arcs CAN cause fires.
Yep, I have seen that. I use arc fault analysis quite often to determine an origin of a fire, not the cause. Relating the position of the beads that are formed on the wires due to electrical "faults" to the layout of the electrical system will help establish the area where the fire and the energized system first coincided. these beads can provide information about the location of the origin and the sequence of the fire's spread. Some investigators will offer it as proof of an electrical cause without realizing that most arcs are due to the fire burning insulation off the wiring so that the conductors short together.
-- Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeremiah,
I for one, would never disagree with someone that is obviously highly educated, certainly educated more than myself, as your forensic electrical engineer.
Can you hear yourself speaking? Education sure does have its place but in this case I can assure you that the spark that will be created by an arc fault in a simple 2 wire 120 volt circuit, would be enough to start a simple house fire. I have seen metal welded together with simple 120 volt circuits that was shorted together.
If you would like, you can come over to my house and I will put them together for you, so you can see for yourself the spark that is generated. If you would like I can even do it around typcial materials found in the home, like insulation, wood, paper, cardboard....etc..
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey, with credentials like Jeremiah, I am not going to argue with him either.
So, you are saying that in normal residential and small commercial buildings (anything with less than 480 volt systems) the cause of the fire is NEVER an electrical arc?
Originally Posted By: janderson This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe M,
That would be a wonderful experiment, let me know what your results are (just be careful  ).
I must tell you that I have witnessed this same experiment myself in a controlled environment and performed by the above mentioned forensic electrical engineer. Let me tell you, until I seen this with my own two eyes I would have agreed with your statement 100%. However, the results speak for themselves; arcing two wires together in a typical 15 amp 120/240 volt residential system can ignite some gases and finely divided materials such as dryer lint, but have little effect on solids such as wood, paper, and even sawdust.
Yes I can hear myself speaking and when you think about it, it does seem to follow logic. Otherwise, manufactures would be producing arc ignitors for our wood fireplaces instead of what we commonly find--arc ignitors for gas stoves and matches for wood fireplaces.
Jerry,
Yes basically, but not always. In residential settings, very few fires are actually caused directly by arcing, it is the heat generated (overloaded circuits, faulty wires, ect..) from the electrical system that heats the materials until they pyrolize and/or reach their ignition temperature. The fire then burns the insulation off the wires and they touch together and arc. In live burn tests in a typical residential room it has been confirmed that a fire starting in the T.V set at the right side of the room results in arcing in the T.V and around the TV and nearby lamp. If the fire starts in the center of the room or in the easy chair the arcs in the electrical cords can help to locate the origin. Arc faulting in these cords helps eliminate a fire origin in the wiring inside of the walls.
One case where the arc would occur before the fire would be when a combustible gas is ignited by the arc of turning on a light switch. However, some would argue that this is more of an explosion than a fire.
-- Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeremiah,
That was my point exactly, anything that scientists do in a controlled environment will yield the results that are seeking to produce. When you put those conditions in the real world, they just don't tend to follow the scientists guidelines and reproduce the same results as in the controlled environment.
If you take a look at the scientists that have been killing those little white mice for decades, according to them I should have been dead a decade ago, with all the things that I have done to myself, that they told me would give me cancer or kill me in one way or another.
While I do agree that the thermal quality of an arc is limited, and in some cases, so minimal that it could not possibly set anything on fire. But I also know that the 8 millisecond rule which the breaker should trip sometimes runs into seconds which can produce a spark hot enough to set most combustionable material on fire.
Since I happen to inspect electrical installations, I also know that not all are done correctly which would throw the 8 millisecond rule out the window.
Unfortunately, household products that burn are not limited to combustionable gases. There are other solid material in the home that have combustionable qualities close to those combustionable gases which you speak of.
I believe you should be careful of what you say to others because it can be misunderstood to mean that arc faults could not possibly cause fires when in fact, they can and do.
I personally believe that too many electrical fires are blamed on electrical installation when they can not find the real cause of the fire. Certainly it would be possible for it to have been electrical but I also believe that everyone here can also understand it may have been something else as well and they should just categorize those fires origins as unknown, instead of electrical. 
Originally Posted By: janderson This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Point well taken.
When I say controlled, it was not in a lab or some other setting, I mean that it was done by an experienced person with considerable knowledge. Live burn testing is about as real world as you can get.
-- Within the seeds of ignorance lie the fruits of denial
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeremiah,
Sure, but it makes me wonder if he has any experience with those great welding breaker that were made by FPE! 
Originally Posted By: jpeck This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
Dang it!
I just got back in the office and was going to ask Jeremiah about FPE and Zinsco panels, where there would be an arc, and no tripping, but you beat me to it.
You can arc weld with many Zinsco and FPE breakers, without fear of them tripping.
I've watched videos of fuses exploding out of their enclosures because the AIC was not high enough. Throws molten metal from the enclosure across a 12 ft room and embeds it in the far wall.
Originally Posted By: jtedesco This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
RESOLUTION NUMBER 2-2003
THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF STATE FIRE MARSHALS
RESOLUTION IN SUPPORT OF ARC FAULT INTERRUPTER TECHNOLOGY
Whereas,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals, whose members consist of the senior fire
officials from each state, is committed to the preservation of life, property and the environment
from fire, and continues to maintain vigilance for new technology to improve fire safety; and
Whereas,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals recognizes that electrical fires rank fourth
among causes of residential fire deaths, and second among the causes of direct property
damage. The Federal Emergency Management Agency reports that in rural areas, deaths from
electrical distribution fires occur nearly twice as often as in urban areas, and problems with
fixed wiring are believed to be the cause of some thirty-five percent of all electrical fires; and
Whereas,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals supports the position of the United States
Consumer Product Safety Commission and many safety experts that the Arc Fault Circuit
Interrupter technology is a critical new fire prevention technology that will greatly reduce the
potential for electrical fires by shutting off power to circuits where arcing is detected; and
Whereas,
The Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter technology branch circuit protection will prevent thousands
of electrical fires by safely tripping a compromised electrical circuit before the fire begins.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED THAT,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals hereby endorses the Arc Fault Circuit
Interrupter technology in all electrical distribution circuits of residential occupancies and other
occupancies for the reduction of arc fault initiated fires; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals commends the state of Vermont for improving
electrical fire safety by requiring Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter technology in 1- and 2-family
dwellings for all circuits; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT,
The National Association of State Fire Marshal recommends that all fire service organizations
and allied safety organizations support this technology to reduce the risk to life safety and
property loss from arc-fault-initiated fires; and
BE IT FURTHER RESOLVED THAT,
The National Association of State Fire Marshals recommends to all State Fire Marshals to
maintain vigilance at each state level to prevent the loss or eroding of the National Electrical
Code requirements for Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter technology.
This resolution is reaffirmed by the membership at the Association?s
Annual Conference in Anchorage, Alaska, on July 12, 2003,
_____________________________
Carvon Hudson, Acting Chairman
Membership, By-Laws & Resolutions Committee
______________________________
Donald P. Bliss, President, NASFM
Originally Posted By: dfrend This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
From the National Association of State Fire Marshal (a partner of NACHI’s Safe House Camapign).
Quote:
Did you know that residential electrical fires reported by the National Fire Protection Association causes on the average nearly 73,000 fires every year. These fires are responsible for 591 deaths, 1,400 injuries and over $ 1 billion in property losses. Eighty-three percent (83%) of these electrical fires are caused by electrical arcing.
There are five types of AFCIs listed in UL 1699 although the NEC has only required branch circuit AFCIs to date.
Another type is combination breakers, which are going to be listed in the 2005 NEC BUT with an effective date of 2008.
This is due to the fact that there are no Combination AFCIs available at this time and since everyone has seen some of the learning curve associated with AFCIs to date, there is sufficient reason to make sure these work properly in the real world.
Fires in older homes are a bigger problem by virtue of so many older homes in existence.
There are many issues that AFCIs would help with such as detecting faults in Al wiring, insulation breakdown in older wiring like knob and tube, etc.
AFCIs will benefit there and one of the current proposals for the 2005 NEC is to have them for any service change outs/upgrades.
The 2005 NEC will not be finalized until the end of May 2004 so this is still open.
Originally Posted By: Mike Parks This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
ALL RESPECT intented.
"There are many issues that AFCIs would help with such as detecting faults in Al wiring, insulation breakdown in older wiring like knob and tube, etc."
I would like to see AFCI's installed and working on a knob and tube electrical system. I am NOT saying it will not work, just that I would like to see it.
I have personal experience with it on AL wiring and HIGHLY recommend it on those systems.
