Blower Door Prices

Thanks Kevin,

Great help.

I’m simply worried about the pascal settings of the MBD. But if you say there are no issues with the MBD pascal settings, then the MBD is probably going to be for me.

I will be taking my BPI training with Flir next month. I think I’ll wait it out until this course is completed. I will then make my decision.

Send it to…
davevalley@comcast.net

You might end up liking the Retrotec, but you should purchase after your training. Plus, once you get your certification, you will be eligible for the discount.

JJ with AC Tool Supply tried to convince me that there was an issue with MBD not being able to go beyond 50 pascals and that there was some industry standard that was coming down the pike that would require 75 pascals. That in my opinion was a load of crap just to get me to purchase the Retrotec. I have yet to see anything like that. He told me that if I purchased the MBD, I would being selling it on eBay for 100 bucks a month later. Well, it’s been several months and I’m still using it!

Call both Retrotec and MBD directly to get your questions answered!!

I talked to both manufactures. For MBD, give Peter Burns a call.

Peter V. Burns
Technical Sales Representative
The Energy Conservatory
2801 21st Ave. South, Suite 160
Minneapolis, MN 55407
(612) 827-1117 phone
(612) 827-1051 fax
website: energyconservatory.com

He is familiar with AC Tool Supply.

Hope this helps…

Kevin

Kevin,

No one is the most expensive. All distributors of Retrotec doors are required to honor MAP pricing. Meaning that we all have to advertise the same price. Currently MAP price on the Q46 is $4154. If you shop around to all Retrotec distributors it is the same price.

As far as what Chris’s original post was refering to on the PA setup on the Retrotec vs the TEC (Minneapolis door) is the fact that you can only do 25pa or 50pa on the TEC door. So if you go in to a structure and your door can only get to say 37pa, then on the TEC door you drop down to 25pa and simply multiply your numbers by 2. Do you honestly think that is accurate? If you do, then do your own tests on the same structure. Go to a structure that you can get to 50pa. Do your 50pa test, then do the same test only using 25pa and do the conversions.

Now here is the big question, what are you going to do if the powers that be were to abolish that practice? Meaning you can only do 50pa, which by the way is never 50pa on the nose you have to do a baseline first then get to a 50pa differencial. So most of the time you will actually be doing 46-54 on your door.

To be honest with you, no one should buy a TEC door or the Retrotec Q46 door, and yet that is what most people buy. It is like anything else, people buy strictly on price then find out later on, you will probably end up buying a Q4E. The people buy that strictly on price and realize in the future they should of bought a Q5E. If you want the true cheapest blower door, buy an Inflitec.

As far as who to buy from…you should buy from a distributor that carries everything used in an audit. The blower door is only one part. If you want to pay 8 different freight charges then so be it, but ultimately a distributor (not just us) that carries everything can get you a good price on the door, and when you buy in a “kit” or multiple pieces distributors can get you the best price over all. If you are strictly buying a blower door, call Retrotec. But if you are just buying a blower door, you are not doing a BPI audit.

So I suppose Peter Burns has no motivation in selling you a blower door, or the MBD for that matter. He is a strictly non-bias opinion in the matter…right?

Did Peter show you this? http://www.docstoc.com/docs/7266251/Airtightness-Test-Form-Guide-for-US-Army-Corp-Buildings

or this: http://www.wbdg.org/ccb/ARMYCOE/COEECB/ecb_2009_29.pdf

When I talked to you I told you I am guessing this would happen early 2010, and there is your document from the Army Corp of Engineers backing it up…so I did tell you the truth, so I await an apology.

JJ

Everyone in the market for a Blower Door should get their information on comparison directly from the vendor. Scare tactics from a reseller, in my opinion, is not an unbiased opinion. If you sold both doors, then it would be a bit more fair.

Where is this 75 pa requirement that you were referring to when I was shopping for a Blower Door?

Kevin

JJ,

There is ONE BIG problem with that paper…I’m not in the ARMY!!! Furthermore, it is for the following required buildings:

Design and construct the building envelopes of office buildings, office portions of mixed office and open space (e.g., company operations facilities), dining, barracks and instructional/training facilities with a continuous air barrier to control air leakage into (or out of) the conditioned space.

Show me where this is a National Standard with respect to BPI and RESNET.

I don’t feel an apology is warranted. Sorry.

Kevin

http://www.trutechtools.com/Q46-Automated-Blower-Door-40wHard-Case41_p_862.html

http://www.aikencolon.com/Retrotec-Q46-Air-Blower-Door_p_1636.html

I was referencing what you put in your previous post.

JJ with AC Tool Supply tried to convince me that there was an issue with MBD not being able to go beyond 50 pascals and that there was some industry standard that was coming down the pike that would require 75 pascals. That in my opinion was a load of crap just to get me to purchase the Retrotec. I have yet to see anything like that. He told me that if I purchased the MBD, I would being selling it on eBay for 100 bucks a month later. Well, it’s been several months and I’m still using it!

Your TruTech link(s) is the promotion that Chris was originally talking about. Those prices were not available when you were shopping for a door. We can actually beat that price, as I have over the past two weeks (since the promotion) consistently. We currently move the Q46 at the same price we advertise the discontinued R43 for, $2872.00.

I am not sure the scare tactics you are referring to. I told you if you want the cheapest door that does the same job as the TEC door to buy an Infiltec door. I do not carry those and they go for $1995, much less than you paid. I also tell every inspector that calls me, or posts on here, to not get in to the weatherization/audit business unless they have the ability to sub out the remodel. I am not sure what kind of scare tactic I am using by telling people to not buy any of it.

There is nothing wrong with the TEC door; it does what it is designed to do. It is obvious you think there is some type of conspiracy theory here, and that is not the case. I told you the 100% truth and you took it as something else. I fully anticipated you would come back with “I do not do military jobs” or something along those lines. The government is the one dishing out most of the money for these jobs, and if you do not think the Army Corp of Engineers opinion matters as much to the government as TEC’s then that is your decision. But do not be shocked when you see the 75pa requirement trickle down from government buildings to commercial buildings to residential. Also, do not be shocked when the NAHB standard overtakes all of the current building and testing standards that are out there. They have already hinted towards a 75pa testing standard. You can also reference ASHRAE Fundamentals Handbook, 1997, 25.19, as they call for 75pa testing standards as well. ASHRAE is recognized by EnergyStar.

There is no current BPI or Resnet standard for 75pa, and you know that. You bought your door based on “todays needs & price”. Just like, in the past, people bought IR cameras based on price and todays needs. Now they are upgrading cameras, realizing that the first camera really didn’t meet all their future IR needs. Think of all the people in the weatherization industry that bought an i5 based strictly on todays needs and price. Now the camera is worthless as Resnet has adopted the 120x120 and .100mk standard on cameras. God forbid someone did the research for the customer and figured out that the i5 would probably become obsolute in the future, and inform the customer to such.

Personally if I were getting in to this industry I would buy a Q5E and be completely comfortable in the fact that no matter what my door will adapt to any changes that could potentially come down the pike. And if you do not want to buy it from us, buy it from Retrotec, Inspector Tools, Peter at United Infrared or Trutechtools. I am not familiar with anyone at Inspector tool, but Bill at Trutechtools, Mario at Retrotec and Peter at United Infrared all know their stuff.

And yes an apology is in order, your own post said “That in my opinion was a load of crap just to get me to purchase the Retrotec. I have yet to see anything like that.” I provided you the documentation that shows you that the 75pa testing standard is very real. I also told you back then, that Resnet would eventually bring infrared in to their standard. That was months in advance of them publically announcing it. And yet I do not get called out on that based on some conspiracy that I am trying to sell more infrared cameras.

Who you should be upset with is the salesrep at TEC that was just trying to get an order out of you and didn’t inform you of the ASHRAE or the Army Corp of Engineers standards. The ASHRAE standard has been around since 1997 and the Army Corp of Engineers standard has been known in the industry for quite some time.

JJ

I agree with what Kevin says. I don’t have a problem with the Minneapolis and this is the door that every state of NH auditor uses as well as all the people with the state of NH community action weatherization program.

I doubt very much that the standards will change anytime soon because there are not enough workers right now to complete the weatherization that’s been funded by ARRA, so to throw a monkey wrench in the middle of it right now would not make sense.

Jason,

I don’t understand where the Minneapolis door can only do 50 or 25 Pa.?

I looked at the DG-700 micro manometer after we talked on the phone about this.

This manometer has many different modes of operation.

One is pressure/pressure.
Two is pressure/flow rate.
Three is pressure/flow rate at 50 Pascal.
Four is pressure/flow rate at 25 Pascal.
Six is pressure/feet per minute.

(I don’t remember what number five is)

From what I can see, option number three and number four are automatic settings that complete the calculations automatically for you, to include controlling fan speed to maintain the 50 or 25 Pascal pressure.

This manometer will automatically calculate air leakage rates that can not reach the target pressure. So if you’re trying to hit 50 Pascal and you can only do 40, the CFM display is the calculated CFM at that reduced pressure.

Selecting option three (at 50 Pascal) must be selected if you want to determine automatically the “can’t reach 50 factor” when you can’t reach the 50 Pascal level. These factors are automatically programmed in the manometer (a different set of factors would be utilized for “can’t reach 25”).

You do not have to drop down to 25 Pascal and do external calculations.

Also, when utilizing the “cruise control” option, setting the manometer to CFM/50 Pascal tells the fan the pressure to maintain.

You should also be able to use option number two which is basically a “manual mode”.

As to subtracting baseline pressures of the building from the tests equations, there is a baseline function that you run with all the door equipment installed, but the fan opening is blocked off 100%. This gives you the natural pressure of the building and the time average to determine this pressure and removes this variance from the automatic calculations in the other automatic manometer modes.

All this has to do with a “one-point test”, where CFM is determined at 50 Pascal.

A second and more accurate test procedure is to perform a “multi-point test”. This test is conducted from as high as a recommended 60 Pa (or more), down to the lowest CFM the fan can calculate. Multiple readings at 5-10 Pascal step reductions are recorded and plotted on a graph or computer software. This provides information as to leakage rates across the potential pressure differentials of the building. There is a potential that you’re building will not leak excessively until it reaches extremely high pressure differentials (which may not be normal conditions for your location). This information can also be utilized to determine where the leakage is actually occurring and when.

I believe that the 75 Pascal criteria may be associated with this “multi-point test”.
There will be no requirement to reach 50 Pa in order to perform the tasks, rather a reference point to attempt to achieve to increase the accuracy of testing.

This is simply a perspective from past HVAC training 30 years ago. I am not trained or certified in today’s standards or equipment.

JJ,

Again, I’m NOT conducting Energy Performance Surveys on Army Barracks!! You found a document that describes the 75pa standard, but it has no barring on what I do as a Home Energy Performance Auditor.

I’m not going to apologize for offering my opinion. Actually, the sales Rep at The Energy Conservatory was extremely helpful. He actually encouraged me to take my time and investigate both doors.

This was your comment to me after I informed you of buying the MBD:

“By the way you really should double check about the 50pa requirement that may be coming down the pipeline. A blower door that is not expandable might be one you put on ebay after the first of the year for $100. If they make it so you have to get to 50pa and will not be able to use a conversion chart that door will become obsolete.”

Thanks for the advice, I feel like I made the right decision for me and my business. I can’t speak for anyone else :slight_smile:

All the best,

Kevin

Wow Kevin, that’s a big difference in pricing. I am registered for the BPI Building Analyst Course on Jan.18th in Chicago. I got 3 calls today regarding IR energy surveys and decided to go ahead and take the BPI Course. Any suggestions? I think I know where I’ll be buying my blower door.:wink:
How about these domains?
www.home-energy-audit.com
www.chicago-energy-audit.com

Good luck, Linas.

Study the Residential Energy Book before your class and know the BPI Standards.

Kevin

Linus, the energy auditor field guide is another good one from Saturn.

Book is enroute and Standards are downloaded. Thanks.

Book is enroute. Thanks Peter.

You might also be interested in this video. It helped me out a great deal when preparing for the field test. I think I’ve watched it over 20 times.

One of the Instructors in the video, Glenn Dickey, was my field mentor. He really knows his stuff.

http://www.buildingsciencetech.com/

Kevin

Ordered. Thanks Kevin.

Peter,

Yes your door is fine, and will probably be fine for considerable to come. Even if the 75pa standard did come down, I would assume TEC would have some sort of update unless they just wanted to get out of the business for some reason or another. Which is unlikely. If for some reason mandatory 50pa or 75pa did actually become a residential standard, you could also simply switch to the Retrotec DM-2A guage as it will control the Retrotec, TEC door and Infiltec systems.

David,

Yes you can use conversions, currently. That is yet another standard that “could” hurt some current blower door designs/setups. I have heard rumors through various BPI trainers and Hers raters that the mandatory (meaning no conversions used) 50pa is a very likely next step. Once again these are rumors, but they are basically from the same people that rumored a year ago that infrared would become a standard for a HERS rating, which it is today.

My opinion on doors has always remained the same. If you want to take the path that lowers your risk to future standards, and are not on a tight budget, you start with a Retrotec Q5E. The Q4E will save you money up front with the same performance, but if you go to two or three fans in the future it would cost you more in the long run. If you know for a fact you will be doing structures of 3000 sq ft or less consistantly (age of structures lowers or raises that sq ft number) then go with an Infiltec. The Infiltec is only $1995.

I just didn’t appreciate Kevin’s post (attack) in reguards to what I told him, when what I told him is the absolute truth. He did his research and decided that the TEC door was the best for his business, needs and budget. I find nothing wrong with that, I just did not see the need to come up with some conspiracy theory and put it in a public forum about what I said or the company that I work for.

JJ

Jason,

In the RetroTec…What’s the costs of upgrading from the standard cloth panel to the rapid set-up hard panels?