Christmas Eve Question of the Day

Originally Posted By: pbolliger
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Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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So a counter in the kitchen more than 6 feet from water needs to have a GFCI?


Yes or no?

I understand the thinking behind the 12" counter as it would be wide enough to work with an appliance on, but if it is not near water, is a GFCI still required?

Or is just a grounded receptacle required?


Originally Posted By: jsieg
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I believe the answer your looking for is that ALL receptacles at a kitchen countertop of 12? or greater MUST have a GFCI PROTECTED receptacle. The chart states all counter tops not just ones of 12? or greater, though I think I read here on the BB that in kitchens any counter over 12? must have a receptacle.


Originally Posted By: mboyett
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gromicko wrote:
So a counter in the kitchen more than 6 feet from water needs to have a GFCI?

Yes or no??
Yes


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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NEC wrote:
(6) Kitchens ? where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces
Many countertop kitchen appliances are ungrounded, and the presence of water and grounded surfaces contributes to a hazardous environment, leading to the requirement in 210.8(A)(6) for GFCI protection around a kitchen sink. See Exhibit 210.13 and Exhibit 210.26. The requirement is intended for receptacles serving the countertop. Receptacles installed for disposals, dishwashers, and trash compactors are not required to be protected by a GFCI. According to 406.4(E), receptacles installed to serve countertops cannot be installed in the countertop in the face-up position because liquid, dirt, and other foreign material can enter the receptacle.


Regards

Gerry


Originally Posted By: jpope
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gromicko wrote:
I understand the thinking behind the 12" counter as it would be wide enough to work with an appliance on, but if it is not near water, is a GFCI still required?


According to the NEC, it does not matter the size of the counter. If the receptacle serves a kitchen counter top, it must be GFCI protected - period.

Requirements may be different in Canada. After all, electricity can't travel as fast in those cold temperatures ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


Originally Posted By: pdacey
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jpope wrote:
If the receptacle serves a kitchen counter top, it must be GFCI protected - period


That's why you have to remember to always check the outlet located on the wall on the other side of a pass through or a peninsula. I find them not protected quite often. Even in new construction.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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So an island in the kitchen is a kitchen counter?


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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.


...does not require a GFCI at all kitchen counters. In fact it clearly explains why a GFCI is needed "the presence of water and grounded surfaces contributes to a hazardous environment" and explains that this lead to the requirement "for GFCI protection around the kitchen sink" and explains the exceptions (even though they are near water "disposals, dishwashers, and trash compactors"

Does anyone have the NEC requirement for GFCI's on all kitchen counters, even those far from water?


Originally Posted By: rbrown1
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gromicko wrote:
So an island in the kitchen is a kitchen counter?


Yes


Originally Posted By: rbrown1
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jpope wrote:

Requirements may be different in Canada. After all, electricity can't travel as fast in those cold temperatures ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)



Well Jeff, electricity travelling too fast in Canada will be certain to cause overheating, thereby causing areas of our igloos to melt. Given this case and this situation ALL of our electrical outlets in our igloos are required to be G.F.C.I. protected!



Just a 'lil cold humour!


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I believe you are all incorrect and I’ll explain why…


If a GFCI was required on ALL kitchen counters, the NEC would say just that and there would be NO need for the NEC to mention water, kichen sinks, and exceptions for certain water related appliances. The NEC would have simply said ALL kitchen counters... the NEC didn't.


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Nick,


all kichen receptacles over counters or otherwise are required to be GFCI protcted unless the are a single dedicated outlet.

Regards

Gerry


Originally Posted By: rbrown1
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Since 1973, homes built according to the National Electrical Code have varying degrees of GFCI protection. GFCIs were first required in outdoor receptacle circuits In 1973, bathrooms in 1975, garage wall outlets in 1978, some kitchen receptacles since 1987, and all receptacle outlets in unfinished basements and crawl spaces since 1990.



Might this help?


Originally Posted By: jpope
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gromicko wrote:
I believe you are all incorrect and I'll explain why...

The NEC would have simply said ALL kitchen counters... the NEC didn't.


Nick it does say that. I gave you the NEC quote, I'll give it to you again.

Quote:
210.8 Ground Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.

-(A) Dwelling Units.
All 125-volt, single phase, 15 and 20 amp receptacles installed in the locations specified in ( 1 ) through ( 8 ) shall have ground-fault circuit-interruption protection for personnel.

--(6) Kitchens -- where the receptacles are installed to serve the countertop surfaces.


Water is only mentioned in ( 7 ) - Wet bar sinks.


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I just don’t see the purpose of requireing a GFCI away from water. I understand the mechanics of how GFCI protection works. Can anyone explain how a GFCI would be needed absent of water? Perhaps the NEC figured a cook could potentially take a liquid to a counter not normally near water?


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:
A ground-fault circuit interrupter (GFCI) is a circuit breaker designed to prevent serious shock to people under certain conditions. It can reduce the risk of shock when using electrical tools or appliances in damp or wet areas.

The GFCI works on the principle that the two wires supplying a single-phase electrical load must carry the same number of amperes (current) when the circuit is operating properly. If a ground-fault occurs either to the grounding wire, or through a person, some of the current will take an alternate route back to the system's grounding electrode. One of the wires will then carry less current than the other wire. When this occurs the GFCI will break the circuit, stopping the flow of electricity in a fraction of a second to reduce the electric shock hazard.


Apparently, the NEC feels there is a potential risk. . .


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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Why would a GFCI be required in a dry area? What purpose could it serve such that the NEC would go so far as to require a GFCI in a dry area?


Originally Posted By: Nick Gromicko
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I’ll reword it.


How could a GFCI protect someone where a merely grounded outlet could not, absent of water?


Originally Posted By: mboyett
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Nick, I realize that you are questioning the wisdom of the NEC requirement, not necessarily whether the requirement really exists which, I’m sure by now, that you agree does. The presence of water is certainly a risk factor but not the only one. There are many other places a person can be grounded especially in the kitchen, i.e. the appliance chassis, piping, plumbing, etc. The risk is therefore higher in the kitchen than other areas for a potential ground fault thru a person’s body so the need for GFCI protection is recommended.