Claude,Good question on insurance.
Will NCP have a sway on premiums if standards are in place? Or are high rates due to problems experienced in the U.S. and are a carry over to Canadian markets?
"why are the insurance premiums going up?"
Now that IS funny!!! :mrgreen: :mrgreen: It is called charging what the market will bare ( or squeezing blood from a stone!)
Claude can you steer us toward those stats?
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This doesn’t happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!
Would be interesting to know what other groups like engineers, architects pay for E&O. I once heard it was lower than ours…but couldn’t believe that. Anyone know?
Yes they pay lower and assume higher risks! A person that is BCQ - building code qualified in Ontario even pays lower fees for E&O.
Remember a report claimed, win, loose, or draw is a claim made. It’s not just about how many claims went to court!
I responded on that thread:
That’s the BBB. If you really talk to people on the street, there’s not much regard for the organization overall. At noon today I spoke to a quite prominent member (11 years of HI) of our chapter about a second complaint against a 1.5 year old HI old firm here. In passing, I mentioned the BBB and his response was basic disgust…keep away from them!
I went to website of the BBB you mentioned and found 8 complaints in the last 36 months! I was limited by their search engine to lists of 100 and then told to refine my search for a certain company!! I do not know all companies in Alberta.
So we all know that many to most people do not complain to the BBB contrary to some people’s belief. We’ve heard of court cases involving HI’s with no records of complaints at the BBB!! IMHO, not many complaints go the way of the BBB.
Here’s a couple of the BBB entries:
-
Company failed to respond to the BBB to resolve or address the complaint issues.
So did the complainant get any satisfaction or issues resolved? NO!!! The BBB has no power!! That’s why many of the public don’t respect the org. Complain all you want…save your energy, take it to your lawyer first! -
BBB determined the company made a reasonable offer to resolve the issues, but the consumer did not accept the offer.
Again no satisfaction for the customer. Here’s looking at it from their perspective:
"I complain to the BBB about a member who helps pay the BBB salaries and what do I get…an insufficient offer…these folks are bought and paid!
"This doesn’t happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!"
I don’t think that anyone has claimed that all inspectors are perfect ( except me of course :shock: ) but the stats behind the decisions should be made available to all. Otherwise the seeds of suspicion are planted.
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[quote=gluck]
"This doesn’t happen in a vacuum with all inspections being nice and perfect!!!"
Here is one source - CMHC - type in search document for “investigating claims against home inspectors” - I would post the document here - but the maximum file size is exceeded!Briefly it reviews 240 E&O claims for CAHI/CAHPI between 1997 - 2003 and the general impact on one segment of the home inspection sector. The full report gets into the financial impact of these claims, and reasons why insurance has increased. Furthermore it provides a glimpse at just a tip of the real picture.
George:
The only way you’ll get near accurate #'s is to get HI’s, past and present, to be honest about claims/settlements/complaints. How do we do that? Will they admit they actually paid out monies or were in litigation, etc.? You can go research the BBB’s, court proceedings but these are the tip of the iceberg, IMO. I’m hearing too much on the street.
For example, a highly respected HI in a national organization missed a major foundation settlement with a significant previous repair that should have raised his red flags!! This was a 4-5 year old house for a young minister with 3 children. The house foundation had been partially built on unconsolidated fill. While at the foundation only stage with no backfill and no floor system installed, the front 8’ high wall separated and fell over after a very heavy rain.
For repair, the licensed carpenter/owner/builder then poured a concrete half wall topped off with a 4’ preserved wood wall to lighten the weight in an attempt to prevent further settling. If you saw below grade, 3 concrete basement walls and a PW wall, would it raise questions…Should have…why the one wood wall, Bud???
In the end, the neighbours sold the minister a small piece of additional land at the back of his property, they poured a new foundation on undisturbed soil and then moved the house about 35 feet onto it. Cost 15 years ago: approx $40,000!!!
The HI then shut down his existing company and started another. The minister whom I personally talked to got no compensation…luckily his folks helped with further $$$$.
PLUS…as mentioned on another thread fairly recently:
2 years ago, I found 2 previously (with past 3-4 years) inspected houses with significant (approx 60%) K&T still in use. The purchasers, now vendors, knew nothing about it. The cost to the vendors…$9,300 (replacement) and $10,000 (price reduction)…was absorbed by them. One seller had already moved out of the area (Toronto) and didn’t want to pursue the HI. The other accepted a paper loss of $10,000 without going after the HI; he still had a decent gain of the house due to the recent 30-40% rise in house prices here.
I’m just one little guy not involved at all with the inner workings/politics/studies of the HI field. I don’t go looking for this stuff much (well last night I did). I figure if I know stories like this though, there must be more out there.
Can we get HI’s to be honest…I doubt it!!!
Claude:
Funny how you and I feel the same about what’s on the surface. I was composing the post following yours (and answering a call) but hadn’t yet seen yours, when I used “tip of the iceberg”.
FORGIVE MY POINT FORM. I’M OUT IN THE FIELD PRINTING UP A REPORT. NOT MEANT TO BE ARGUMENTATIVE JUST BRIEF AS I AM LOGGED ONTO AN UNSECURED WIRELESS SYSTEM
The only way you’ll get near accurate #'s is to get HI’s, past and present, to be honest about claims/settlements/complaints. How do we do that? Will they admit they actually paid out monies or were in litigation, etc.? You can go research the BBB’s, court proceedings but these are the tip of the iceberg, IMO. I’m hearing too much on the street.
NOT ADMISSIBLE IN COURT:mrgreen: . WHAT YOU ARE “HEARING ON THE STREET” IS STILL JUST OPINION AND CONJECTURE. NOT GOOD ENOUGH FOR DECISIONS ON THE FUTURE OF MY BUSINESS.
For example, a highly respected HI in a national organization missed a major foundation settlement with a significant previous repair that should have raised his red flags!! This was a 4-5 year old house for a young minister with 3 children. The house foundation had been partially built on unconsolidated fill. While at the foundation only stage with no backfill and no floor system installed, the front 8’ high wall separated and fell over after a very heavy rain.
For repair, the licensed carpenter/owner/builder then poured a concrete half wall topped off with a 4’ preserved wood wall to lighten the weight in an attempt to prevent further settling. If you saw below grade, 3 concrete basement walls and a PW wall, would it raise questions…Should have…why the one wood wall, Bud???
In the end, the neighbours sold the minister a small piece of additional land at the back of his property, they poured a new foundation on undisturbed soil and then moved the house about 35 feet onto it. Cost 15 years ago: approx $40,000!!!
The HI then shut down his existing company and started another. The minister whom I personally talked to got no compensation…luckily his folks helped with further $$$$.
PLUS…as mentioned on another thread fairly recently:
2 years ago, I found 2 previously (with past 3-4 years) inspected houses with significant (approx 60%) K&T still in use. The purchasers, now vendors, knew nothing about it. The cost to the vendors…$9,300 (replacement) and $10,000 (price reduction)…was absorbed by them. One seller had already moved out of the area (Toronto) and didn’t want to pursue the HI. The other accepted a paper loss of $10,000 without going after the HI; he still had a decent gain of the house due to the recent 30-40% rise in house prices here.
INTERESTING SUBJECTIVE STORIES. CANNOT CLAIM THAT THEY ARE REPRESENTATIVE OF ALL HOME INSPECTORS WITHOUT PROOF. HAVE SIMILAR STORIES ABOUT A LOCAL INSPECTOR WHO IS A LOCAL ‘BIG WIG’ IN SEVERAL ORGS. DOESN’T MEAN THAT THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH ALL INSPECTORS. DOESN’T MEAN THAT CERTIFICATION WILL SOLVE THE PROBLEM. MEANS WE ARE ALL HUMAN.
I’m just one little guy not involved at all with the inner workings/politics/studies of the HI field. I don’t go looking for this stuff much (well last night I did). I figure if I know stories like this though, there must be more out there.
“STORIES” NOT PROOF. ANECDOTAL AT BEST.
Can we get HI’s to be honest…I doubt it!!!
EVERYONE, REALTORS, HOME OWNERS, HOME INSPECTORS ADD THEIR OWN SPIN TO THESE “STORIES”. NEED FACTS AND FIGURES FOR SUCH IMPORTANT DECISIONS THAT AFFECT US ALL.
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Thanks Claude. But Isn’t Using Insurance Industry Numbers A Little Biased? How Many Inspectors Carry E+o Out Of The Total? Are The Insured A Greater Risk? Were The Numbers “cooked” To Justify Increasing Rates? Etc. Etc. Etc.
If you’re afraid of the gov dumbing down the requirements, get involved with the process…it’s probably eventually coming to us all. On the training side, get the bar set higher than we already have. If it costs virtually nothing to get into the field, many will rush in!!
In my own small province of under 1,000,000, there seems to be a new HI every 2-4 weeks with virtually no one retiring or going out of business. I hope they keep their day jobs!!
I will not disagree that insurers will be challenged by the finances and economics of the situation. Do they always represent the best interest of the home inspector, or the most economic way to resolve the issue.
On the issue of the “bigger picture” I do not know of any way to get every claim or near miss accounted for under the current system. How about those points already noted by Brian M? And not to discount the BBB numbers, they are just that some parts of the “bigger picture”.
It really is just the “tip of the iceberg”. That was the same problem faced in doing the research on the CMHC report. It was equally as difficult to get the insurers to release that information. You know with issues of confidentiality, privacy, etc.
How many inspectors practice with or without E&O?
How many home inspectors are there in Canada?
How many home were inspected in a set time frame?
How many Realtors have dealt with problems created by a home inspection?
How many home sales owners and home purchasers were impacted by a problematic home inspection?
There are many factors that can skew the numbers.
Lots of questions - with no easy answers or complete means to get a handle on this matter. However, each little piece of this puzzle helps provide at least some of that information.
Thanks Claude. Good posts.
Bill Mullen is a home inspector
Claude Lawrenson ,sells home inspection Programs and teaches New home inspectors.
I think he makes very little if any income from doing home inspections.
We unfortunately have too many in Ontario turning out many more home inspectors who have very little chance of ever becoming a home Inspector.
3 years invested and $10,000;00~ is very hard on many families.
Roy Cooke
Money to be Made Today is in Training…
Not in actually Inspecting Homes.
Those that understand the economy of scale… TEACH
Those that do not…INSPECT
Yes, I am a partner in Inspection Support Services Inc. We do sell reporting software, and provide mentoring, onsite inspection training and customized training for home inspection groups. We have completed work of large contracts for “inspector training” including 3 day up to 1 week workshops for CMHC and NRCan. Seems we must be doing something right!
I also teach online for Humber College delivering education for Home Inspectors. Humber is a far cry from one of those home inspection diploma mills. It has official recognition of two home inspection programs of study involving in excess of 400 hours of education and training, that is recognized by the Ministry of Colleges and Universities.
Actually you are partially correct, I inspect part-time, and the majority of my inspection work involves litigation support dealing with claims against builders, contractors and inspectors.
I seldom teach for OAHI anymore…
I agree that getting into the home inspection sector can be expensive, and furthermore that home inspectors should get as much education and practical experience as possible to prepared to suceed! However, is not just those that are fooled by looking for the short cuts, but those that feel they are ready regardless of background, that feel this is an easy profession to get into and make $$$$. In this case you are pointing fingers at the wrong person.
Again this is not just an Ontario problem, this is a bigger issue in most any province or state. However, with that said - who is perpetuating this problem - not all home inspection training programs, and certainly not all trainers, et al.
I too have offered courses and educational opportunities for home inspectors for free. I have never stated or promised any person they will get rich quick, nor offered them any shortcuts. This business for home inspection is not just about ease of entry. There is much, much, more.
So who really is trying to fool who?
I find it so unfortunate to see so many invest so much money and Time and the odds of making a living seem to be less then one in ten.
Some how we need to let those know that the odds are extremely small of lasting three plus years.
Those who are in the teaching and selling end push their services and products.
Seldom does any one talk about how low the success rate is.
I am doing wrong by trying to get this information out to those who are looking for a profession to make a living at.
Roy Cooke
Not at all; very few others are…especially the mills. For those close to retirement, it may be the thing especially if they have extensive and varied building experience. I had a call from a 58 year old gent yesterday inquiring about HI after viewing my website (in the field longer than anyone else in this chapter). Gave him the straight poop as I see it (basicaly same as yours); he said he’d have to have a hard, long look at it then.