Copper And Aluminum Grounding Wires

Originally Posted By: bdowd
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Just did Inspection on single family. Have question about Grounding Wires.


1- From neutral bus bar have copper wire going through panel to water pipe. That is a good ground connection. Above copper, same neutral bus bar, have "Aluminum" wire exiting panel, and exiting exterior wall going to outside house meter. Aluminum Ground wire is going inside, thru bottom, of meter box. Aluminum? Meter Box?

2-Below meter box is a outside main disconnect with a double 100amp breaker.

3-Now panel box in house(would that be a sub panel off outside main disconnect??) has a total of 8 single breakers (120) and 2 double breakers (240). Now, with the main breaker outside, should the inside panel have no more than 6 breakers to shut house down? If so what would be a good way to word that on report.

4-And last have hot wire spliced with wire nuts (2 places) going to hot side of breaker. Wire was not long enough so they spliced it. One to a 15amp and second to 20amp


Thank You Bruce A. Dowd


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Bruce,


According to the NEC it is ok to place the disconnect on the outside of the building. I believe that I read they are trying to change that for the next addition but for now it is ok.

Since the disconnects are located on the property that would qualify to cut off the electricity to the house even though they are located outside of the home.

Splices should be made on the outside of the panel and placed in a junction box.

The main disconnect on the outside of the house still needs to be grounded to a ground rod and it should be visible exiting the panel and leading to the ground.

Does that help?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: bdowd
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It sure does sir. icon_smile.gif Got to go back to pick up radon canisters on Monday, will look for that groung off main disconect. Just one more question? Do you really sleep with that NEC book?


Thank You
Bruce A. Dowd

A & A Home Inspections


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Joe and Brad,


The disconnect is on the exterior of the home most probably because the main panel exceeds the maximum allowable distance from the meter to the panel. I believe the panel must be within 8' of building entry, or something like this. I doubt the NEC will change with regard to this situation, as it is most common in condo-type dwellings.

As to the issue of a main disconnect in the panel: it is not required, as power can be shut to the dwelling with a swipe of the hand (rule of 6's) at the meter. Meter disconnect must never be locked

In your example, the main panel has become a sub panel, so look for a floating neutral. This point is absolutely critical.

Splices are allowed in many main panels. It's up to the local AHJ. There is no specific reference to prohibit this practice in the NEC. You may not like it, but it may be okay in the town you are inspecting in. It's common practice up my way, and perfectly acceptable. So, be careful as to what you call out. The local AHJ has the final say, not the HI.

Joe Farsetta


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Joe F.


You know I hate to be a disagreeable person but I am pretty sure I just read on Mike Holt the NEC was attempting to change that, or maybe it was the IBC, now the ICC or whoever they call themselves now.

The NEC does not have an 8 foot rule, do they? Maybe the AHJ rule?

I would have to look up the code reference on the splices and to be honest, I am feeling lazy today with no hope in sight for tomorrow, maybe even this week. Maybe Dennis B. will come over and read this and help us out a little.

(just rubbing you back dude)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: nlewis
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Gentlemen,


Here is the NEC reference for the main disconnect.

230-70(a)Location. The service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location either outside of a building or structure, or inside nearest the point of entrance of the sevice conductors.

The exact distance is determined by the AHJ. In NJ six feet is used.


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I honestly don’t think they’ll (NEC) ever eliminate this as a rule. If anything, they will standardize the maximum allowable distance. I asked the local rep from the Board of Fire Underwriters (Electrical AHJ) here in my county, and they, too, require an external disconnect if the distance from the exterior of the dwelling, to the panel, is greater than 6 feet. It’s not from the meter to the panel. Its from the exterior entry point to the panel.


Dennis B also claimed that wire nuts weren't allowed in the main panel (as I, too, once believed). This was a couple of discussions back.

Neal and I both asked him for a reference in the NEC. To date, no one has been able to find it. Up my way, it's considered acceptable practice. I believe Neal sees it down in Jersey as well.

Joe F


Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Bruce,


The service disconnect on the outside of the house is your first means of disconnection, therefore, the neutral bus must be bonded to the enclosure and a ground wire (#6 for 100 amps and #4 for 200 amps), must be run back to where the water enters the house and to a 8 foot copper ground rod that extends into the earth outside of the house and is buried. The Equipment Grounding conductor from the service disconnect is then routed to the subpanel where is connects to a separate ground bar that is bonded to the subpanel enclosure. The neutral in the subpanel must float and not be attached or bonded to the subpanel enclosure in any way.

The above gauges for grounding is copper only. Aluminum conductors must be of a larger gauge (typically twice the size of copper conductors) to provide the proper ground protection. Aluminum conductors attaching to a copper connection must also have protection from oxidation by using a compound on the wire itself such as De-ox or Nalox.

There is nothing that states that wires can or cannot be spliced inside of an electrical panel. However, it is not a good practice for nothing can wrack the brains of someone troubleshooting a open splice, when there are splices in the panel. If you must splice in a panel, they should be made visible and accessible. It is not required but the proper way to splice a wire, that may be too short to reach a breaker, is to do it outside of the panel using a junction box and then routing a longer wire from the splice. back into the panel. Hopes this helps.


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Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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The 6 feet from the disconnect to the panel is actually a fire code. I have yet to find anything in the NEC in regards to the distance from the meter to the panel. It is the rule of thumb if the meter is 6 feet or more from the panel that a disconnect for the service equipment be provided at the meter. In case of fire, the firemen will hope to find the main breaker directly behind the meter. If it is more than 6 feet, it must be at the meter. I guess them fire guys don’t have the time to search for the main breaker, when it is more than 6’ from a meter, when the house is burning. Makes sense to me guys!



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Originally Posted By: bdowd
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Sorry About not getting back to those who answered my questions. had family emergency icon_sad.gif out of state and just got back.



Thank You

Bruce A. Dowd


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Don’ the fireman usually pull the meter from the panel anyway. Are fireman getting lazy? Scared?


Maybe we can get a fireman to come over and explain this one to us.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: ismetaniuk
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This membership was a big waste of my time!



Igor


Top To Bottom Inspections


Glen Spey, NY

Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Bruce,


The meter disconnect would be considered to be the first means of disconnection for the service equipment. Therefore, all grounding must be done in that panel. The panel inside now becomes a subpanel. It's neutral must be floating and it must have a separate ground bar with a EGC from the main panel connected to it.

The main panel must have a wire going to a ground rod and to h2o. As far as the type of conductor goes (copper versus aluminum), either one is acceptable providing it is at the right wire size. The code allows you to size the ground wire no more than 2 gauges lower than the service feeders. However, for a 100 amp panel the ground must be a #6 copper and for 200 amps it will be at least a #4 copper. If you use aluminum wire on any connection in the panel or elsewhere, it MUST have de-ox on it to prevent it from corrosion due to the dissimilar metals.


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Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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As to Dennis’ comment about the 6’ rule being a fire code… Remember, the NEC is, in fact, a fire code: NFPA governs the NEC…


Just bustin' 'em a bit...