Double Tap

As greg said in many if not all cases the double tap is an easy fix with a pigtain as far as being compliant goes…does not account for the fact now you possibly have twice the number of receptacles on a single circuit…but then again the NEC says nothing about the number of recepts per circuit…

AS for the transformer…yes it should not be inside the panel…believe it or not I do not see that much…but I did see a receptacle in a panel the other day…and a nasty one too boot…:slight_smile:

lol…What in the world did I call a PigTail…a PigTain…You got any of those PigTains layin around Greg…thehehehe

We always note the overuse of extension cords and outlet multipliers and use this in our reports:

Fwiw some insurers in Ontario will not insure homes with 60 amp, even though Ontario Hydro has never condemned it. Another case of insurers playing by their own rules.

Hi Ray,

The 60 amp itself is not really the problem, as we all know many smaller homes an appartments are well served with 60amps, the insurers are however using the 60amp supply as being indicative of the service not having had substantial upgrades in over 40 years.

Regards

Gerry

Good morning Gerry

Unfortunately half of Toronto and surronding communities with older housing have 60 amp service that is still serviceable. I have yet to see the insurers prove there is higher incidence of fire, electrocution. I think they just want to reduce risk wherever possible. The other problem is that insurers have no authority to dictate policy on behalf of the Hydro company (Elect. Safety Code). The ESC is the definitive source and legislated. The insurers are however not legislated to make such decisions.

Regards,

Please do not include me in the “we all know,” for here in San Diego I do not know of any smaller home or apartment that is well served with 60 amps in today’s world. Perhaps that is because 60 amps generally indicates fewer circuits and fewer outlets.

San Diego is one of America’s most Internet-wired cities; I regularly find 60 amp service in older homes and apartments with a 2-to-6 outlet multipler and extension cords plugged into extension cords plugged into extension cords to provide electricity to parts of the room where there is no outlet. I believe it is those conditions that the insurance companies are objecting to, and here at least, they have learned that 60 amps indicates that there just ain’t gonna be enough outlets for all the stuff that we have in our modern homes. They have learned here that if they add up 2 and 2 and 2, they will, indeed, get six.

I myself have a CD player in every room, including both bathrooms, for a total of 11 CD players (gotta listen to my Beatles wherever I am), TVs in 10 rooms, computer/monitor/printer in five rooms, and 7 computers/monitor/printers here in the office, and more. . . .

Hmmmmm. Mine proves all the time that outlet multipliers and extension cords are a continuing major cause of fires in our homes. One only uses outlet multipliers and extension cords when there are not enough outlets in the rooms. And there generally are not enough outlets with the older homes. And the older homes generally have 60 amp service. As I said earlier, 2 plus 2 plus 2 does equal 6.

Fewer circuts does not equate necessarily with 60 amp. It is the lack of outlets. Not the service. The amperage size up here usually equates to square footage usually less than 2K sq. ft. Upgrading from 60 amp to 100 does not solve the outet problem two distinct issues in my opinion.

Outlets even in new homes have extension cords, because of where furniture is located or electronic equipment is so plentiful that they run a power bar from next outlet. I have that in my home which is 40 years old and has 200 amp.

That’s what I said, “generally.”

Exactly. I think I said that, too.

Not in and of itself, no. The whole purpose in upgrading to 100 amps is to add additional circuits so that additional outlets can be added so that one doesn’t have to resort to outlet multipliers and extension cords.

With outlets every six feet or so in the modern homes, the only time I’ve found extension cords are when the owner was a musician or a computer technician. For the common homeowner, outlets every six feet, which is common here with 100 amp service, is quite adequate. Insurance companies here know that and are using the 100 amps as a minimum.

I am curious about this “insurance” thing. I have owned a few houses myself and when you go through my family the number is over a dozen. I have NEVER heard of an insurance company physically inspecting a property as part of issuing the policy. How do they know?

BTW I have never heard of a claim denied because work was done without a permit either. My agent (Allstate) told me that was an urban legend)

I had a perspective client tell me today that she had insurance people in in order to get insurance policy and he was a home inspector come insurance inspector. The house was 100 years old and he was calling out the log floor joists as inferior and needing replacement, and a bunch of othe superfulous crap that had no relation to insurance, such as painting window sills, et cetera otherwise no insurance. He spent close to 6 hours in the house which was 100 years old! She finally called another insurer and got insurance with no problems. If that dick head insurance appraiser did that in my house I would ask him to leave.

Richard Noggin

You mean “Richard Cranium?” :wink:

Insurance companies here are now requesting a copy of the home inspection report, or the appropriate pages. Additionally, note that insurance fraud is, I believe, a federal crime, so purposely stating something on an insurance application that one knows is false is definitely a no-no.

Definitely not an urban legend here. I know that Allstate, Farmers, State Farm, and Prudential here will decline both claims and insurance if they find unpermitted work.

There’s always an insurance company out there that will insure just about anything for the right premium and/or the right disclaimers. Read the fine print. Shop around.

Ooooooooh. Did I really just say “Shop around.” Hmmmmmmm. Sounds like what we don’t want our Clients to do when searching for a home inspector, doesn’t it? Hmmmmmmmmmm. Well, shop around for everything except your home inspector. Then, simply use me. :smiley:

They would certainly have to show me that clause in their insurance contract. At a certain point 99% of the fires in homes could be linked back to some kind of homeowner negligence if they wanted an out.
For us the “fire” part of the insurance is such a minimal part of the cost of the policy I doubt they really care. My windstorm and flood is almost 3 times the rest of the whole homeowner package and I have the premier option umbrella policy.

Hi Raymond
I’m in your neck of the woods.
The section in my Electrical Code Simplified
called “Door Bell Transformer” says “It is not correct to connect two
wires to a breaker or to splice the transformer primary leads onto another
circuit conductor in the panel, Rule 12-3034(1)”.

John,

Yes you are correct. Thanks for catching me on that.

Generally it is up to the insured to read the fine print in the insurance policy and to ask questions if something is not clear, if something is missing, or if something has been added that is not wanted. That’s how insurance companies make so much money; the average homeowner has no idea what all that legal mumbo jumbo means, they don’t hire a Joe Ferry to explain it to them, and they have no idea what to ask the insurance carrier because they already are confused from reading all the legal mumbo jumbo.

Wanna make lots of money? Go gas or insurance, young man, gas or insurance. :smiley:

Probably not quite that high, but considering that the top causes are candles, cigarettes, extension cords, and unpermitted work, one could certainly point to homeowner negligence/stupidity/etc.

Earthquake insurance gets us here. One either pays a low premium for nothing, or a high premium for almost nothing.