Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey there Joe F. How the heck are you?
Is there anything in the NEC codes specifically about splices in the panel? How can you consider that a defect? A splice is a splice, is a splice, is a splice? Would the same hold true for sub panels? HELP ME, HELP ME!! 
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Joe,
Here's the deal. Splices in the Service Panel are only allowed when a feeder cable (to branch circuit) is too short and needs to be extended. No breakers are allowed to be double-tapped at this time. The reason is simple, and it has nothing to do with current draw. It is because the mechanical connection between wire and terminal lug on breaker isn't technically secure with more than a single wire. This can cause arcing, excess resistance, heat, you name it. Nothing to do with ampacity, which makes absolute sense, as that single connection feeds many receptacles and switches. Here's another juicy little tidbit: although the breaker is rated for, lets say, 20 amps, the NEC only permits loading to 80% of that rating. This is true for the entire panel, including the main disconnect. So, a panel with 200 amps of service can only technically be allowed to draw up to 160 actual amperes. This is in the NEC. Also, a good rule of thumb for overloading conditions without physically tracing wires (used by inspectors and licensed electricians all the time) is the actual quantity of cables in the main panel. 100 amp=20 cables, 150amps=30 cables, 200 amps=40 cables. As far as technicalities go, nothing may be physically attached to the main penel. Most common technical violation is a doorbell transformer mounted to the housing. Double lugging of this transformer is also typically overlooked...
Sorry for the delay in my reply. I've been in NY State DEC training all week... Pesticide applicators license for certified termite inspections needed in NY to fill out WDI form.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Hey that is a good rule of thumb considering that when I was working for the electrical distributor most 100 amp panels had 20 spaces, 150 amp had 30 and the 200 amp had 40. For some reason that did not click with me.
Just one more question. The rule which you say is 80% according to the NEC codes. Does this rule change for different loads? Like motor, continuous, switching, lighting.....
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Section 210.20(A)
"Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the rating of the overcurrent device shall not be less than the noncontinuous load plus 125% of the continuous load."
In other words... 80%. A 15 amp circuit should be loaded to 12 amps, 20 amps to 16 amps, and so on...
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Section 210.20(A)
"Where a branch circuit supplies continuous loads or any combination of continuous and noncontinuous loads, the rating of the overcurrent device shall not be less than the noncontinuous load plus 125% of the continuous load."
In other words... 80%. A 15 amp circuit should be loaded to 12 amps, 20 amps to 16 amps, and so on...
As far as motors, heaters, etc. Look to the device/appliance or nameplate (central AC units) for actual draw. Same rules apply. These specific devices contribute to the overall draw to the main or feeding sub-panel. Hope this helps...
Originally Posted By: jremas This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
For continuous loads that are on or have the capability to be on for more than 3 hours straight, 80% of the rating is correct. Lighting loads would be a perfect example of the need for 80%. For a garage door opener that is never on for more than 3 hours, there is no need to comply with the 80% rule. So if there are lights and an opener on the same 15amp circuit (14ga depending on the length of run for voltage drop) and the lights total 10 amps, and the door opener is 5 amps, you are OK. The 15 is not exceeded, and the 80% of the lighting is not exceeded.
But then again, from what I am reading and I am told, we are not responsible for the NEC Code.
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
With regard to Jeff’s comments regarding the current draw of the garage door opener. I dont believe the opener will draw a continuous 5 amps. It may on start-up.
To Joe's question, I've been told that 80% is 80%. Motors and such, like central air units, will be attached to higher rated breakers. They are typically put on dedicated circuits. In those instances,, you go by the rating on the nameplate in the unit, and size accordingly.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Jeff,
Thanks that was well explained. Thanks to you also Joe F. for your patience with my ignorance. Both of you have been very helpful.
Just a funny note....the other day I was doing an inspection on a townhouse. As I normally do I was setting up shop on the kitchen counter and to save myself the agrevation I always check the GFCI circuit on the counters before I plug my stuff in...Just at the moment I popped the GFCI circuit on the counter the refrigerator shut off...I was thinking, "NO" absolutely no one in their right mind would. So, I hit the reset. The refrigerator turned back on.....thinking, "this just can not be" I popped the circuit again...the refrigerator turned back off. I can just imagine what would have happened had the refrigerator not been running when I got there and this was missed. These buyers would have come home to a freezer and refrigerator full of bad food and looking for me to replace it!
Originally Posted By: jfarsetta This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Well…
How about letting the food spoil first, THEN resetting the receptacle...
No, really, maybe a note pinned to the'fridge telling whoever's refrigerator ot was, that its power is coming via the GFI, and to pay close attention to when and if it ever trips, elst the WILL have some spoiled food.
Originally Posted By: jmyers This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
That is the great thing about learning, you never really stop! I learn new things every day, like not to give Dan and Ben my business cards! Really though, just from the conversations I have had with you, you are not lacking in the intelligence department. (no kidding)
You have been a considerable help to me on several occasions. And thanks for the help, I always appreciate the second point of view.
BTW...I am not handing out any more of my business cards to anyone.
Originally Posted By: Blane Sparhawk This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
A lot of thought went into the kitchen circuits
Something that may help:Square D QO ; If you look at the piece of metal under the screw (the wire goes under this piece) if it has two grooves on it, it is made for the possibility of two wires.
The main reason wires come loose from panels is because of lack of correct torquing of lugs. Also stranded wire should be retorqued after time.
I learn new things every day, like not to give Dan and Ben my business cards! 