Electrical Contractor response

Originally Posted By: Brian A. Goodman
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[quote=“jpeck”]


I think you mean 'grounded conductors' (or neutrals when used as neutrals).

Yep, that's what I meant.


Yes (the enclosure is required to be bonded to the equipment grounds), but that is the neutral bar, not the equipment ground bar (okay, THAT terminal bar IS both, but it should NOT BE both).

That's what I'm driving at. There should be 2 terminal bars and the enclosure does get bonded to the correct one.

How've you been Jerry, long time no post. Relentless as always I see, from reading through other threads here. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jeff


Parts of this may apply to your inspection.

This may be copied. Jeff I can send this in a word doc.

RII
Residential Inspector?s, Inc.
16085 Fish Rd. Suite 10
Marysville, Ohio 43040-8925
614-214-1487
January 1 2004
To Whom It May Concern:
Re: Electrical Panel replacement.
The question has been asked, ?When should I replace an electrical panel that is not the cause of but involved in a structural fire??
While this must be decided on a case-by-case basis here are two ?must? replacements of the electrical panel.
1.) ?If there are any signs of moisture or damage the equipment should be replaced or repaired, as previously described.? Source Square D Product Data Bulletin Class 110 October 1995.

2.) ?If an oily substance is found.? Source Square D Product Data Bulletin 0110DB0301 July 2003.

?Electrical equipment manufacturers are contacted occasionally about an
oily residue found on the surface of circuit breakers and, sometimes, control
equipment. An investigation launched to identify the source of the oily
substance found that the oil comes from the degradation of the PVC
insulation used to insulate some circuit conductors. Given sufficient heat
and time, the oil plasticizer separates from the PVC material and wicks to
the circuit breaker, resulting in an oily accumulation on the circuit breaker
surface and embrittled insulation on the conductors.

Failure to replace electrical panels that have been subject to water, smoke, or heat damage is contrary to the listed equipment requirements. Not withstanding the potential safety implications, this is a violation of the 2002 NEC Article 110.3(B).
Although some areas have not codified the any edition of the NEC all parties involved should be made aware of the safety hazards present by not following the manufacturers listed equipment requirements.
Respectfully yours

Michael R. Parks

Electrical Safety Inspector, OH. Cert. #1820
Member of the National Fire Protection Association
Member of the International Association of Electrical Inspectors



2004 Residential Inspector?s, Inc.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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jpope wrote:
I told the buyer that it was not correct and gave him Bob B's phone number ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)




I have my phone forwarding to Jerry P's house. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Jeff … I have to ask this, cause I can’t believe the EC blew this call so bad. Was that really a “sub-panel”, with a main service disconnect somewhere else (and therefore needs a “floating neutral”) … or possibly a “service panel” that doesn’t quite meet the present 6 switch rule (can’t see it, but possibly grandfathered?). I had to ask or missed something.


Mike ... WOW ... that must be your longest post yet. Oh yea, it's mostly cut-and-paste (Duck) ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpope
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Robert,


This was a feeder panel (equipment panel) located in a second story condo. The main service disconnects are located on the exterior of the building in a common closet. The unit was constructed in 1989.

A situation similar to this one.

![](upload://cJ9ZBxNMyPABGxFcRiKab5T79Nx.jpeg)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: Scott Patterson
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This panel was not designed or equipped to have the grounds and neutrals separated. So I would have just noted they were on the same bus bar.


As for the over spray, short of replacing the panel not much can be done with it. Note that the panel has over spray and if you want you can say that it should not be in the panel.

Is it wired to todays standards, NO. Is paint allowed in a panel, NO. Will it cause a problem, probably not. I think you chances are just about the same as being struck by lighting.


Originally Posted By: jpope
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Scott Patterson wrote:
This panel was not designed or equipped to have the grounds and neutrals separated. So I would have just noted they were on the same bus bar.


And your recommendation would be what? To leave it alone? An additional busbar is a pretty simple installation and would be the correct recommendation. I am certainly not qualified to say that it is "no problem."


Scott Patterson wrote:
As for the over spray, short of replacing the panel not much can be done with it. Note that the panel has over spray and if you want you can say that it should not be in the panel.


Again, your recommendation would be what? To leave it alone? Can you tell me for certain that there is no plaster or paint on the busbar connections to the breakers?

Scott Patterson wrote:
Is it wired to todays standards, NO. Is paint allowed in a panel, NO. Will it cause a problem, probably not. I think you chances are just about the same as being struck by lighting.


Is this what you would tell your client?


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Okay Jeff … I figured you had nailed it, but just had to ask. With the neutral-ground bond at both the service equipment and the sub-panel, there would be “parallel neutral paths” which is a shock hazard according to NFPA. Curious to know if the EC back-peddled at all.



Robert O’Connor, PE


Eagle Engineering ?


Eagle Eye Inspections ?


NACHI Education Committee


I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jpope
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As I said, I told the client that the condition was not corrected and the “fix” was improper. I even gave him the codes that pertained to this condition.


I haven't heard back from them yet. . . ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)


--
Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jpope wrote:
I even gave him the codes that pertained to this condition. I haven't heard back from them yet. . . ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

And ya gave them Bob's number, which will be forwarded to Jerry Peck's office. The poor EC has no clue how much trouble he is in ... can you say "Uncle" ... I thought you could ...

I still cant figure the EC's position. Why not just fess up thats it's a hazard, and fix the damn thing. Don't tell me ... the EC was the last licensed contractor on that job. How did I guess that one ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Scott Patterson wrote:
This panel was not designed or equipped to have the grounds and neutrals separated. So I would have just noted they were on the same bus bar.

Wrong answer ... there is NO excuse for a hazardous installation.


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



roconnor wrote:
And ya gave them Bob's number, which will be forwarded to Jerry Peck's office. The poor EC has no clue how much trouble he is in ... can you say "Uncle" ... I thought you could ... ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) ![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)

The EC will say:

"I will fix it all, just don't make me call those long winded pains again"

Why won't the EC admit it is wrong?

Sadly some ECs do not understand the difference between neutral and grounding. These are also the ones who can not be bothered with a code book because they already know it all.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: roconnor
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob Badger wrote:
The EC will say:

"I will fix it all, just don't make me call those long winded pains again"

Jerry long winded and a pain ... nawwwww ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

Now if we could only limit posts to 500 words or less ... hmmmmm ... (as Jerry contemplates if these are actually compliments ... LOL). I will say this from experience ... Jerry also knows his stuff (except for his position on 2-prong receptacles ... DUCK).


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong