Expert opinion needed- Urgent

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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Jerry,


I like your analogy for the criss-crossed pipes. I believe you're correct.

![](upload://j7gIqVUSaP7oD9YLnhIQkapt0Zy.gif)


--
David Valley
MAB Member

Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections
http://www.masscertified.com

"Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go."

Originally Posted By: Guest
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Jerry’s most likely correct about the crossed pipes being a SNAFU,


A couple points: Acid flux is used nearly exclusively for plumbing applications. It's highly reactive (corrosive) and is the best flux for heavier soldering like plumbing. Rosin fluxes are used almost exclusively for electronics and small wiring. Acid fluxes in electronics are too corrosive and can degrade the circuit.

Acid fluxes left on a pipe will cause that nice green patina you see by accelerating the oxidation of the copper. But, given time, all the copper will eventually be that color.

Acid fluxes are neutralized over a period of hours days or months depending on their formulation, by air, moisture and the copper. As they "react" to their surroundings they become increasingly neutral and it's doubtful that one could leave enough flux from sloppy workmanship on a copper tube to cause it's failure.

The ducting appears to be aluminum, not galvanized. Aluminum is even farther away from copper on a galvanic scale, but the symptom, if it were caused by galvanic corrosion would probably be more local to the point of contact.

I'd recommend the tubing be cleaned and inspected. I'd also imagine the plumber that did this had the crack of his butt showing the whole time.


Originally Posted By: kwilliams
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Quote:
I'd also imagine the plumber that did this had the crack of his butt showing the whole time.
![icon_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif)


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Member - MAB

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Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Chad,


I was wondering if you were going to get around to commenting on this. Good points.

Anyway how's this?

Copper pipes in attic display evidence of corrosive activity, this is evidenced by the presence of a green powdery substance on the pipes in various locations in the attic (pictures 2 -4). These areas appear to be plumbing repairs that are incomplete as suggested by excessive flux left to remain on pipes, pipes not cleaned and insulation not returned to the area after the repair had been made. Plumbing joints should have been clean of acidic flux and wiped down completely after the repair was made. At a minimum, the pipes in these areas should be cleaned , inspected and approved by a licensed plumber. The blown in insulation in these areas should be replaced to cover the pipes to prevent them from freezing.


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Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: Guest
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John,


Given the huge difference in our report writing experience..( you have some) I'm the wrong guy to ask what looks right.

All I know is it's all pretty damn ugly and used a lot of fittings to do what 3 feet of soft copper w/ the ends swaged could have done w/ 4 joints total.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Just for the sake of clarity, a sloppy flux job is enough to cause your pipes to corrode and leak.


Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Clarity now, clarity now! Sounds like a Seinfeld episode.


Thanks to all for your input. Another fine example of vertual mentoring.


--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: psisler
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John,


Hi, just my 2 cents, the green discoloration is called "verdigris" it occurs on copper and brass which is a basic acetate and occurs due to prolonged
exposure to the air and moisture. A plumber friend who built house with me said that there could be a very small hole in the assembly somewhere and that he always wiped all piping down after connecting his piping. The hole is mostly filled, at the moment, with small debris, such as sediment etc. and will blow sooner than later. Good call. The heck with the other so-called inspector.

Patrick M. Sisler
Alta Sierra Home Inspections
altasierrahi@lycos.com


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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John,


Didn't you ever wonder why you always see that green stuff at the joints, just so happens to be just where the leaks are developing?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: rwills
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Actually the corrosion is not always located at a joint. The picture here shows what happens when a copper pipe is corroded from the inside out from an acidic water source. This happens more so on thin wall copper like “type M”. It creates a small pinhole, then the water reacts to the copper salts on the exterior causing the green corrosion, it builds up and actually stops the leak temporarily. The only reason it didn’t run like this picture is this pipe is vertical and John’s was horizontal. When they clean those pipes in John’s picture, I wouldn’t be surprised if they do find a leak. John couldn’t have called it better! BTW, this happens more on the cold side, notice the other pipe isn’t corroded in his picture although it too has been modified! BTBTW, when I find this, I usually recommend they test their water also!






Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I doubt they’ll find a leak, there is no stain on the ceiling below.



Jerry Peck


South Florida

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Doesn’t have to be! Like I said, the pin hole leak reacts to the outer surface of the copper and the corrosion build up actually stops the pinhole leak. Notice the picture I posted, although you can’t see the bottom, the leak stopped before dripping onto any surface. It would only be a matter of time before the leak wore through the corrosion and started again. THEN, you would see it come through the ceiling!



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I realize that, but your post showed the leak running down, on Jeff’s photo, it would have been dripping off.


That green acid flux is not good, I've already said that (as have others). But cleaning that off, in the photo we are referring to, will not, in my opinion, reveal a leak. That is from not properly wiping the joint clean after soldering and rinsing the acid flux off.

Could the copper be deteriorated? Absolutely, but I doubt there is a leak there. Two different things.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rwills
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reveal a leak, if not in the pipe surface then at the joint itself!



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob W.,


I agree that he needs to call it out.

I disagree that you will likely find a leak there, because of the pattern of the corrosion, there is no "source", just all over, like would be from acid flux. Could the surface of the pipe be deteriorated, I've already said yes to that, and that would compromise the pipe.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rwills
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that the pipe could have a hidden weep hole. I have seen many pipes corrode through and literally stop themselves from leaking from the caked on corrosion. Let me ask you this! Would it be safer to say:


" I doubt there’s a leak hidden under that corrosion, then buy the seller a repair job"? or, " It’s possible that the pipe could have, or may spring a leak and call for a plumbers evaluation"? I never said it was “probably leaking”, I said “possibly could have”! Still doesn’t expalin if it’s a sloppy and uncleaned flux job why the other pipe didn’t corrode!



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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rwills wrote:
Still doesn't explain if it's a sloppy and uncleaned flux job why the other pipe didn't corrode!


My reasoning as to why the other pipe didn't look that way?

It was done first, being the bottom pipe, and was wiped clean. The top pipe, being done last, was at about the time the plumber was more than ready to leave the attic, 'get that sucker soldered and I'm outta here'.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: rwills
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Yeah, or it was lunchtime! or the boss yelled, “wrap it up!”. icon_lol.gif Still gonna CMA though!



Bob Wills - MAB Chairman


BW Inspection Services


Warminster, Pa.


http://www.bwinspections.com