Federal Pacific Question.

thread drift

I have a question for those in Tennessee and South Carolina who I believe uses the exact same inspection law; do you write in your inspection reports the above required statements on every issue you report on in your inspection report?

I used to. But my current reporting software does not easily facilitate this requirement.

Technically we are required to report;

This condition requires repair.
This condition requires subsequent observation.
Or
This condition requires further investigation by a specialist.

These statements are technically required after each issue reported on in the inspection report. Otherwise, what you put in the report is not a “significant deficiency” that must be acted upon.

To bring this back online with the Federal Pacific discussion:

Does this condition require repair?
We haven’t identified a deficiency yet.

Does this condition require subsequent observation?
That would be a good recommendation due to past experience with this equipment.

Does this condition requires further investigation by specialist?
If there is no deficiency, what are they to investigate further? Can an electrician fully evaluate the performance of this service equipment in the field?

Is there any reason in these three examples/state requirements where “replacement” should even be mentioned by the home inspector?

David,
It is 9:30 sunday nite and I just got home. You have put forth alot to think about. It may take me a day or two. Thanks
Larry

Wow you guys are really getting into it.
I would not want to do a inspection on a home and have it catch on fire after the fact due to a fed pac panel. I make a comment leaving it up to licensed electricians for them to determine if they make the decision that it is ok then it is on them not me. I am not a professional electricain they are and it is their job.

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FPE panel noted a the listed location, recommend that this panel be evaluated by an Electrician with remedy as necessary. :smiley:

http://www.codecheck.com/cc/pdf/electrical/FPE_Article_Nov2003.pdf

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I would like to know what they do to make their professional decision in this case.

If I recommend an electrician and an electrician cannot adequately determine adequacy, am I not liable for the recommendation? I’m not into deferring inspection to somebody else in the hopes of transferring liability from my court.

Seeing this condition has been reported thousands of times, has anybody ever received documentation as to the accuracy of the common electricians who are recommended to perform these tasks in the field?

The problem with Federal Pacific may go far beyond Stab-Lock. In fact, if one were to do a little research, it could be discovered in an SEC filing from 1982, that Reliance revealed that Federal Pacific used deceptive and fraudulant means to gain UL listings on many breakers in its line, including molded-case commercial units. Some of these were recalled by Federal in an effort to take them out of service. But, as Federal Pacific products were one of the most popular forms of overcurrent protection at the time, the total number of breakers in service is huge.

I have been advised to be careful with what I post, as I could be the target of a lawsuit. By the way, Federal Pacific, as a business entity, still exists. So, if someone wants to bring a lawsuit, they can go after a company with possibly limited assets.

As to a class action suit against Fed Pac and its parent, there was already a long protracted suit in NJ. Federal Pacific and its parent were found to be in violation of NJ’s Consumer Fraud Act. A settlement was reached and those who qualified and were part of the class received compensation. The class was quite limited. Unfortunately, the records were sealed (for the 2nd time).

I say the 2nd time, as this is the second huge suit involving Federal Pacific since the late 70’s. In fact, its current parent sued the former owners of Federal Pacific for their money back. This was after certain questionable practices were discovered as to testing and certification of certain overcurrent devices. These court records were also sealed.

I personally believe that the total situation is must unfortunnate. So long as the court documents are sealed, much of the truth will never be known. Perhaps if federal Pacific agreed to unseal the records from both cases, they can clear their good name once and for all. I hereby petition them, and their parent, and all involved to help clear the air that these devices are indeed safe and that all means were explored and implemented to correct any defficiencies which were alleged to have existed. It is the only responsible thing to do.

The reasons why the CPSC never made a recommendation are a bit convoluted as well. Kaiser Aluminum successfully battled the CPSC over aluminum wiring in residences, arguing that the wire itself was not a consumer product, and therefore not within the realm of what the CPSC has control over. The CPSC lost that case. It was likely that the same argument would be made with regard to Stab-Lock, with the same results. There is also much more to this portion of the story.

The story is deep and pretty mind-blowing. But, unless and untll thes docs are unsealed, and truth may never be fully known. IMO, evaluation by a licensed electrical contractor is the LEAST one should recommend. Transfer liability right back to the Client. Stay far away from this one.

As to any Wikipedia explanation., stay away from it, as well. Make your answer as simple and as non-technical as possible, so there will be NO misunderstanding on the part of the client. No six-paragraph explanations. Simply put, in your opinion certain products made by this manufacturer, including overcurrent protection devices, have come under scrutiny as to reliability when a fault condition is encountered. As definitive evidence is not readily available, and as no governmental recall of this equipment has been issued, you recommend further evaluation by a licensed professional engineer (electrical) or licensed electrical contractor.

Period. End of report.

Thank you Joe!

As you can see, the complexity of this issue is well beyond home inspection. The fact that you even talk about it is a liability.

If you pass on information that turns out to be incorrect you’re possibly liable under law.

I see several home inspector that are extremely withheld in their opinions of the subject due to the influence of “outside sources”. Read and heed!

It’s kind of like a big gag order out there!

No one here is saying that there is not an issue!

What were saying is that it is not our job to take on the world of Federal Pacific (and the liability involved) for the sake of home inspection reporting.

You can “inform”.
I highly recommend you do not “dictate repair”.
When you inform, advise you tread lightly!

Many inspectors like to blow smoke about conditions they have no education on. This is a bigger liability to a home inspector than the potentially defective electrical equipment.

If you cannot definitively show and document a particular defect, recommend you leave it alone.

David, after having reread this entire thread, with emphasis on my own comments, I see now that I have never known what to say about FPE because the entire history of this situation is so convaluted that we are now in a position that the industry doesn’t dare even talk about it anymore. I therefore have been making the arguement “let someone else take the responsibility”… call an electrician!
I see now that you have been argueing “simply stay with the facts”, as convaluted as they are, and let the client decide.
While I have never stated in a report that an FPE panel needed replacement, I have used wording that was “strong”… indicating my personnal beliefs. You are correct in that my comments should be more in line with the state SOP and not my personnal belief.
I didn’t realize I was opening such a can of worms when I asked an FPE question. We all should get CE credits for posting to this board. I learn more here than in any other venue. All you guys are great! Thank you all for taking a question that could have been answered with two NO’s and giving so much more meaning to it.