First FPE panel

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1

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Guess I popped my cherry…got my first FPE panel with stablock breakers to inspect. Not a ton wrong, but breakers were as loose as keys on a piano. I flagged it.


![](upload://3LvcfjC2yybZpwd8Zrh3ky3NlFE.jpeg)



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2

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Kevin


Not to bust your chops, but what is the normal movement for these breakers?

Mike P.

3

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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would an outlet with loose contacts be considered flaggable? I would consider the same with breakers.


http://www.codecheck.com/pdf/electrical/240overcurrent/FPE%20Article%20from%20DH%20-%20Nov2003.pdf

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4

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Normal movement for the FPE panel would be that they fall out if you take the cover off icon_lol.gif icon_lol.gif

5

Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Is it true that an FPE should always be evaluated by an electrician? I’ve never seen one yet.


Erol

6

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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With FPE…you have to hope the breakers fall out cuz they rarely trip icon_lol.gif


Lot of controversy with the infamous FPE panel....but with my experience with them....they work well if you need to arc weld something.

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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

7

Originally Posted By: David Suelflow
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This is what I say:


I have observed a Federal Pacific Electric "Stab-Lok" service panel in the house.

According to the Consumer Products Safety Commission (CPSC), this panel is a latent fire hazard: it's circuit breakers may fail to trip in response to an overcurrent or a short circuit. Failure of a circuit breaker to trip can result in a fire, property damage, or personal injury. A circuit breaker that may not trip does not afford the protection that is intended and required. Simply replacing the circuit breakers is not a reliable repair. The panel should be replaced.

Out of fairness to all parties, it's proper to describe this as a latent hazard. The panel does not "initiate" an unsafe condition. Rather, when an unsafe condition such as a short circuit or current overload on a circuit occurs, the equipment may not provide the protection expected. The result can be an overheated wire and an electrical fire and/or personal injury.

Opinions by licensed electricians on this panel varies between safe and unsafe. I advise you consult a licensed electrician for an opinion and correct if necessary.

Additional information can be read on internet at:

http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpepanel.htm

http://www.cpsc.gov/CPSCPUB/PREREL/prhtml83/83008.html

A contrary view can been seen at:

http://www.allabouthomes.com/FedPacPan.pdf

8

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Looks to me like the article at CPSC says that they have insufficient data to classify FPE as hazardous. Did I just miss somewhere in there that they say they are a latent hazard?


Sometimes my 2nd grade education fails me ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

9

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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funny thing was when I removed the cover I flipped a breaker off and didn’t even realize I had done it until we notice the lights didn’t come on in the kitchen.


After reading the article, I noticed that’s one thing they warn you to watch when you are inspecting them.

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10

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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You have to be careful quoting CPSC “articles” and “reports”. They are just the opinion of a few bureaucrats and do not have the force of law. A prime example is the flap over the Ideal 65 <purple> wirenut and aluminum/coppper splices. CPSC says they are bad but they are still U/L listed so they are “legal” unless a local AHJ wants to 90-4 them. Everyone I know just holds their nose and OKs them if they appear to be properly installed.


If you want to put a footnote in your report that “CSPC says…” that is valid but be careful about listing it as a hazard without some qualification.

11

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Here is a true story for all the doubters with the FPE panel. This happened TODAY…


Got a service call from an individual that was concerned about an outlet that had sparked when he tried to plug in some computer equipment. He told me prior to doing such, he smelled something coming from this outlet. The first thing I noticed was that he had 3 monitors, a laser printer, 2 towers and a ups unit all running off this single receptacle. I checked some data on the equipment and told the customer that with everything running, he would definitely exceed the rating of the wire feeding the outlet and more than likely would trip the protection device for that outlet. He told me that he had never tripped any breaker and that all was running fine until he added the laser printer. The printer was rated for 9 amps by itself.

This particular house was built in 1925 and had a mix of k&t and romex wire. In the basement was a lone FPE panel with a 30amp breaker, 4 single pole 15 amp breakers, a 20 amp breaker and a lighting main breaker of 50 amps.

I pulled the outlet out and all seemed normal. No loose connections or any evidence the outlet was defective. Aside from running too much on that single branch circuit, I found no real defects with the circuit other than the protection device. It would not.....and I repeat, would not trip.

I have this neat little device I built which when activated will cause a short circuit on a outlet, and therefore, hopefully. will trip the breaker. The device has a time delay fuse inside of it in case it does not trip the breaker or blow the fuse. Given ample time with the use of this device, the breaker or fuse should blow. It is a device I use often to test breakers as well as finding a breaker.

I hooked it up to the suspect outlet and it never tripped the breaker. Of course not....it was a FPE breaker I was trying to trip. I told the customer that he needed 2 things. First was a panel upgrade.....and second was two dedicated circuits to run all of his computer equipment.

Fact is, with everything turned on and running.....his current at the feed to this outlet was 24 amps. That's 24 amps on 14 gauge wire protected with a 15 amp FPE breaker. The wire itself had brittle insulation and needed to be replaced as well.

I told him he should buy a lottery ticket....for he is lucky that his house didn't catch fire.

Bottom line here....from an expert.......someone who has dealt with FPE panels for better than 30 years.....

FPE panels are bad news. Require that they are checked by a qualified sparky and if at all possible, require them to be replaced. This story is jut one of many I can tell you about FPE's. The remark about arc welding with these panels is true for the breakers fail to protect circuitry. This circuit alone......a 15 amp breaker and wire, sustained an excessive amount of amperage (24 amps) on a continuous basis......for some time before the outlet and the wire finally said.....ENOUGH! This is a true story....better to be safe than sorry. Every house I enter that has a FPE panel in it, is immediately recommended for upgrade. I do not use the bad history with FPE panels to sell upgrades either, as some may think. I state the facts and I inform people to not take my word for it and to do their own research via the internet. My little testing device needs a new fuse....I gaurantee you that I will not replace that fuse with a FPE breaker instead!

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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

12

Originally Posted By: bgriffin
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Dennis,


I appreciate your experince with FPE.

How should a HI report to a client about FPE without being called "alarmist". ![eusa_wall.gif](upload://hILV5Z8gRVLwzVpRIDJEm01uB52.gif)

Also, how should we approach an FPE panel? Should it be opened or is just the fact that it's an FPE is enough to recommend evaluation by a sparky?

13

Originally Posted By: dvalley
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I always open FPE panels. Most of these in my area contain aluminum branch wiring.

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David Valley


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14

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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I simply report that the FPE panels are considered problematic by many industry professionals and that the panel should be thoroughly checked out by a qualified licensed sparky.


Unfortunately, the sparkies around here are clueless about the FPE panels.

Dennis,

You want to come down here and teach the local lectrishuns ![icon_question.gif](upload://t2zemjDOQRADd4xSC3xOot86t0m.gif)

15

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Naw too humid in Florida… icon_lol.gif


Besides Florida is one of them "right to work states". Being union bred here....umm nevermind.

Just give them one of them damning web pages about FPE panels.....that should do it. If not, have them hold a neutral and a hot wire connected to a FPE panel.....and have them touch the wires together.....as in a short circuit......if that won't convince them (as the flames fly and the breakers never trip)....then they are beyond help.

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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

16

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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I go one step further in my work, whereas, I often make copies of the literature found on some of those damning web pages in regards to the lovely FPE panel and I pass them out to customers. Maybe…a HI could do the same. I don’t see anything really wrong with that and your passing good info about a bad panel.


Been thinkin of havin a weenie roast sometime in August. Flames provided by .......you guessed it.....Federal Pacific.

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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

17

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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I did that exact thing…except my reports are online reports, so I just included the link to a few pages discussing the problems with FPE panels.


I also had it stated that if they intended not to replace the panel, at a minimum install a smoke detector above the panel just in case. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)
Wasn't my idea, but I liked it so I used it.

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18

Originally Posted By: dbozek
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Hmmm a smoke detector…now why didn’t I think of that icon_lol.gif

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You cannot help men permanently by doing for them what they should and could do for themselves. Abraham Lincoln

19

Originally Posted By: Steve Costa
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I have found a couple FPE panels, at first after reading the reports on the net, I told the customer it should be replaced. But then I got to thinking, Im not an electrician. So now I print the entire 16 pages at http://www.inspect-ny.com/fpe/fpestlouis.htm#ReplaceFPE


which does say FPE panels should be replaced. But at the bottom I add “Recommend the panel be evaluated by a licensed electrician of your choice as to the safety and/or replacement of this panel” That way they have the info. that says replace but the final call is between them and the sparky. Steve

20

Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Steve,


You realize I hope that the website you send them to is actually a website of a home inspector right?


Daniel Friedman of American Home Inspection Service…an ASHI member. icon_wink.gif

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