I just listed my BCam on Ebay.I’d like to sell it before I buy a new imager. What kind of deals are you talking about Jason? I’m kind of set on at least 320x240 resolution.
$8,995 but you got to get it this month.
I’ll be upgrading within a few days.
Free blue tooth.
Microphone headset.
Choice of blue tooth clamp meter or moisture meter ($675 value).
Neck Strap.
Two batteries.
2 bay charger.
Cables
3 temp ranges.
No tax (in case your in a state like mine with a sales tax and no income tax)…
If you don’t get this stuff call me and I will get you with the right people.
Because back then they were not using IR for building inspections
like they do now.
I find it interesting that some who started out on a budget several years
ago and purchased an entry level camera will now mock those who
do the same thing as they get started.
No one is “mocking” anyone trying to get started!
It is an attempt to keep the new guys from falling into the same trap.
Cheap cameras and cheap training doesn’t do anyone any good.
Worse yet, is misinformation that leads these newcomers down the wrong path. Making them think they can get away with bare bones but paint a picture that they can do anything in the field with what they got.
They want to charge the going building inspection rate of $1,165 but want to do it with a $1,900 camera and a $500 dollar course (at best). They are taught that is all they need.
Then they go out there and don’t charge anything for the service and smoke the customer in the process.
Some trainers seem to think that building science, energy auditing and roof inspections can be done with any camera they can afford. Unlike electrical and mechanical, building inspection requires more camera than any of them.
It’s not the new guy being mocked…
Here is my 117th IR scan. It is under the same conditions as my post above (#16).
2 Degree Delta. Slight moisture.
Close, aren’t they?
How did you ever make it with a low end camera, I will never
know. ??? I am so glad you are doing so well now (oh, you
did make it, I almost forgot).
I took an IR scan of a window defect the other day that you
said was impossible for me to do with my BCAM, but I did
it anyway. Then you had to admit you did not know how
I did it.
Live and learn.
I have heard many an inspector complain that they felt cheated
and were charged too much for a Level I class, that had almost
nothing to do with a building inspection. Again, FLIR had to
create new building classes to make up for this lack in the
emerging building IR industry. Level I was never created for
home inspectors in mind, at the time it was made.
BTW… the vast vast majority of Level III thermographers will
tell you that they in no way could perform an IR home inspection.
Titles mean nothing. If you have no background in a certain field,
then all the Level III titles in the world will not make up for it.
A Level III thermographer, with no background in construction,
is as useless at a home inspection as tits on a bore hog (even
if he shows up with an 80K camera). He will be seeing things
he has no idea on how to comment and could really get himself
in trouble.
Let’s be honest and cut away the foggy crap and mystical enigma.
Even if a guy took every thermography class out there, if his
background in construction is void, he is still in big trouble when
he turns on his IR camera. A two to four day IR class cannot make
up for this lack. (I assume a qualified home inspector is something
more than a one-week home study course … ie… see TREC for
details on becoming a home inspector in Texas).
I do not recommend IR for a casual novice inspector. It can do
more harm than good IMHO.
But if he has a strong background in construction and knows how
to how to make that little BCAM work, he can do wonders. When
he can afford more, then he can buy more. But in the mean time,
it will work and find many many defects during a home inspection.
If you want to do more than a home inspection, then that is another
story altogether.
In Texas, the following conditions help prepare an inspector to become
a better thermographer, when he takes his IR training… IMHO.
In addition to the 328 class hours, one of the following requirements must be met:
[LIST=i]
[li]120 hours in an experience training module[/li]
[li]120 hours inspecting with a qualified eligible licensed Professional Inspector[/li]
[li]5 years of personal experience in a field directly related to home inspecting[/li][/LIST]
Pass a very difficult state exam.
The InterNACHI Infrared Certification process requires more than just a two day IR course.
[ol]
[li] You or your inspection company must own, lease or be renting an infrared camera. [/li][li] You must be a member in good standing of InterNACHI. Membership requirements are at: http://www.nachi.org/membership.htm (pass entrance exams) [/li][li] You must have taken InterNACHI’s free, online Green Building Course, taken all its quizzes, and passed its final exam. The Green Building Course is free and open to all at: http://www.nachi.org/greenbuildingcoursereleased2007.htm[/li][li] You must have taken InterNACHI’s free, online Moisture Intrusion Inspection Course, take all its quizzes, and passed its final exam. The Moisture Intrusion Inspection Course is free at: http://www.nachi.org/moisturecourse.htm[/li][li] You must have taken at least 16 hours (two days) of Continuing Education devoted to infrared cameras/thermal imagery or building science (not including the mandatory Green Building Course).[/li][li] You must sign and return the application/affidavit to InterNACHI.[/li][/ol]
Learning to use an IR camera is easy, compared to learning the needed skills to be a good
home inspector. The learning curve for IR is much much shorter.
*"In addition to the 328 class hours, one of the following requirements must be met:
*
[LIST=i]
[li]120 hours in an experience training module[/li]
[li]120 hours inspecting with a qualified eligible licensed Professional Inspector[/li]
[li]*5 years of personal experience in a field directly related to home inspecting *[/li][/LIST]Pass a very difficult state exam."
**
John:
Do you suppose you can sell this concept to Nick?
Nick already sees a need for a higher level of inspector qualification…
[ol]
[li] [FONT=Arial,Helvetica,Verdana, Sans Serif]completing 1,000 fee-paid inspections and/or hours of inspection-related Continuing Education courses (combined) in their lifetime;[/li]
[/FONT]
[li] proving they’ve been in the inspection business for at least three years;[/li]
[li] abiding by the industry’s toughest Code of Ethics;[/li]
[li] substantially following a Board-approved Standards of Practice;[/li]
[li] submitting to a criminal background check; and[/li]
[li] applying for Board certification by signing an affidavit in front of a Notary.[/li][/ol]
You gotta be kidding, right?
John,
Remember that Resnet raters are trained on the use of an IR camera in conjunction with a blower door. You can work at a much lower delta T when using the two of them together. Even then, the standard calls for a 18F delta T, which for todays cameras seems really high when you consider a blower door is being used.
Attached are two images from a Ti32 showing the difference between using a blower door while doing a scan vs not. In the one image the inspector using IR alone would have completely missed the exception. As a side note I do not advocate running out and buying a blower door just to do IR inspections. There are other big factors involved, some of which are dangerous. If anyone decides to go this route, get proper training.
I also agree with David on the camera selection. Things have changed a lot in the past two years. When a lot of the guys here got in to IR in 2008 the 320x240 cameras were in the $20k plus range. So starting off with a BCam, or what have you, cost in the $7-$10k range. For that same money you can now get a 320x240 camera with extremely low thermal sensitivity. I think when a lot of these guys got in, you were pretty much stuck in the HI world with the equipment that was within people’s price range. Now a days there is no reason not to get a camera that can do it all as well as the training to do it all. There is money in building diagnostics and using IR in home inspection, but it is very short sighted on someone’s part to limit their work by buying a low end camera. It was a little different when you were giving your students a 160x120 camera that was dedicated for building diagnostics, now you are offering some low end hybrid camera that is really focused more on electrical panels and other (big delta T) mechanical/industrial applications.
JJ
This document that was just approved by the RESNET Board over the weekend. It outlines the minimum performance requirements for IR cameras to be used during energy inspections.
The key specs are 120x120 and .10 NETD.
There is no Mrad Minimum Requirement whatsoever.
http://www.resnet.us/standards/RESNET_IR_interim_guidelines.pdf
Hope this helps. 
John,
Did you note this part?
Those who wish to be trainers must be a RESNET Rater Trainer with a minimum
of Level II infrared training and certification.
Weird how they would use a 1998 standard, eh?
JJ
The INFRARED CERTIFIED training class is not a energy audit class.
It has never been offered as such. I thought you knew that.
Perhaps you have never done a home inspection and do not
know the difference?
Since Snell wrote the standard and he teaches Level I, II, III
then it makes perfect sense to me.
I would not want someone teaching me IR who does not have
a strong background in construction.
John,
I wasn’t really comparing your training vs Resnet or Level I/II/III. I was referencing your comments earlier in this thread about how Level I is outdated. You even used Resnet as your authority reference for camera specifications. I was just wondering if you consider them an authority reference for training.
By the way the MRad specification is there, but you have know how to figure such. You have been training IR and equipment for a while so I figured you would just do the math.
JJ
You wanted Nick to embrace the Texas standards for qualifications
and when you see that CMI requires twice as much, then you
don’t like that for some reason. Nothing makes you happy :mrgreen:
Many a home inspector has come back from a Level I class
and was very angry that his teacher could not answer some
basic questions about IR and home inspections. The teacher
was raised in another industry in that class. It does not
make you feel warm and fuzzy, after you have spent approx.
$1800.00 on a IR class.
John you still floundering with “less is better” syndrome?
I did not address my post directly at you. I was speaking in general.
You seem to be taking things awfully personal (maybe for just reason).
I am interested in your repetitive response that I told you you could not do window inspections with a BCAM. I posted a pretty extensive thread about how this window phenomena occurs. I had no clue. We all worked it out together.
Please post the location of my claim to refresh my memory. It is probably something you took out of context which you commonly do.
Which brings me to another point; in the beginning we were all learning. I attended your first traveling IR show when it came to town. I conferred with William Decker in designing your first course. I allowed you to use my scans in your first websites. Now you want to hold me up as someone that simply ridicules everything you do because I’m something better than I deserve.
Well, I will get personal here.
In the beginning you were like everybody else starting out. However, you have not advanced yourself other than to become the cheapest training available to home inspectors and offer the cheapest camera and promote the unnecessary need for quality of equipment.
You took one building science course from Flir. You’re not certified in anything, but you’re out there “certifying” camera owners?
I am so sick and tired of listening to you downplaying level I through level III trainers because they allegedly don’t know building inspection (and you do). You do nothing to promote people to learn more (and teach others) and advance this industry. Yes, I will consent that there are a lot of expert thermographers out there that cannot utilize thermal imaging under every circumstance. Unlike you, they all get together and “work-it-out”. You just sit around and condemn them for doing it. Though you may not “teach it”, Courses like yours lead students to think that once they have bought a camera and attended an introductory training session that they can go out and use your camera on every application there is. This discussion was made long ago and it is still my opinion that no one should point a camera at something they don’t fully understand. Next week I am attending a course at Firestone concerning flat roof applications and their industry improvements. I will continue to learn something new every day. That’s the only reason I hang out here! I am not complacent and settle for minimum standards. I try to introduce new concepts for enlightenment, and for my efforts I spend most of my time responding to crap like this.
I’m not talking about your customers, I’m talking about your students customers.
As far as buying into the process and upgrading in the future, Jason made an excellent reference when pointing out the current equipment costs. I bought a $5000 BCAM as my first camera (like you), $7000 on my first 320x240, and $9000 on my most recent camera. I don’t buy on the “bleeding edge” (actually I never did because I bought my first BCAM as a discontinued model). I sat on the sidelines and watched “the likes of you” and others that have long since left this board.
This is what I recommend to everyone here. Don’t buy crap equipment at a high initial cost, wait for the price to come down and upgrade to a better camera that you will need and use for a longer time to come. That time is “NOW”. I didn’t have these options back when. As Jason pointed out, these cameras were extremely expensive before. We were on the bleeding edge. I’m not trying to entice anyone to spend more than they need to. I’m trying to entice them to buy today what they’re going to need tomorrow and not try to blow smoke up their *** to get them to take one of my courses and get a camera that they’re going to have to try to unload within the next year as they learn what the camera is actually all about.
If you were a customer, which one would you pay the most for?
I’m not saying it can’t be done. But there’s no reason to drive a model T. when you can now buy a Corvette at 50% off last year’s price.
RESNET intends for use with a blower door! Jason pointed this out.
And “like yourself” you are not using an entry-level camera (just a low res camera). My recollection is that you have a Flir BCAM. That is not a level entry camera under today’s standards.
I’m not changing my mind, I’m just realizing how much I have actually missed during the time I owned a lower Res camera. If you recall, I posted pictures of a coffee cup on my desk with a BCAM and a BX320 when I first upgraded. There was definitely things in the scan that could not be pulled out with the BCAM. Thus, my opinion that you do miss things with lower end cameras.
Unlike some people, I back up what I post here. (Now don’t get all personal and think I’m pointing a finger at you). I lead by example, how about you (now I’m pointing)? Show us your stuff!
Even when I post side-by-side photographs to make the point, you continue to “mock” me.
So the answer to your initial statement:
Look in the mirror to see who’s doing the “mocking”. You’re simply just one of those people that try to tear people down that outshine your “smoke and mirrors”.
In case you are in denial and haven’t realized it, you are the laughingstock of this industry. You are world renown for your “less is better” concepts!
There is nothing wrong with introducing people to this industry at an entry level, but quit trying to pull the rest of this industry down to your level of perspective.
Are you going to “mock” every one of your students that surpasses your “standard” because they simply want to know more?
When they buy a better camera than you own, are they then the black sheep of your heard?
“That is all I have to say about that…”
This is my farewell speech to the NACHI message board. Don’t waste your breath responding John because I won’t interact any further (here or elsewhere).
Later