I would agree, nobody bothered to help any of the “home inspectors” with wind mitigation here until I stepped forward. Now some just seem to want to put them down.
I can only tell you what I know and do. I have never claimed to have all the answers, unlike Robert who just likes to copy and paste code. Apparently that is all he knows how to do. He certainly doesn’t do many inspections according to my sources. I have never said he was wrong either though.
Can’t we all. …
Never mind…
Have a good week.
John, you absolutely must get over this whole thing of taking criticism personally, it is holding you back as an inspector and presenter. On this forum I have been called dickhead, stupid, idiot, and more…never once have I been offended or even slightly irritated by it. To have your opinion refuted is common place for me, even in my circles we argue and critique each others work constantly. You have the links to my website, which isn’t fully completed yet but critique away as I welcome the difference of opinion.
I copy and paste code because that’s where the answer is! No?
I perform wind mitigation inspections on every home I inspect, I just don’t complete the 1802 form. I comment on the details of how my report would not benefit the customer and why, and I do it on EVERY inspection. I have yet to inspect an accordion or shutter system installed properly or in compliance with the NOA, even on new homes. I have yet to inspect a roof covering installed in accordance with the NOA. Missing straps at framed end walls, improperly installed straps, pictures of shiners labeled as the roof to deck attachment qualification when all they are is the weakest connection…nail into nothing.
1802’s that only give credit for clip when they are actually a single-wrap, the qualification for such is the weakest connection of a metal strap lapped over the truss with 3 nails, one in the opposing face. That’s the MINIMUM qualification for a single-wrap, not the only qualification…what about a strap attached to one side of the truss with 9-10 nails in it?
I recently had a conversation with a round table of Engineers via phone conference that was incredible, they were responsible for a 2011 study on the 1802 form that detailed flaws in the education of the form and details not being properly interpreted. One of the things we talked about was roof geometry, and how the damage assessments from insurers that were being provided to them was interpreting the roof geometry improperly. They (insurers) were labeling structures as “hip” and assessing the damages to the structure with that classification of roof geometry, and they were not using engineering practices in the determination of that classification.
The form specifically asks you to measure the complete perimeter and subtract the non-hip features measure, so what we needed was the classification of non-hip features…not hip features. As it turns out, overhangs in excess of 36" are not considered hip features as they handle wind differently and require additional uplift rating. This is especially relevant on older structures, pre 1977. But, inspection of the construction documents to determine proper compliance and visual inspection of the strapping at that location is required on new homes.
As for the permit, if that qualified the insurers could just bypass the whole system and call the building department themselves, or the owner could just provide a copy of the permit to the insurer and save the $75 completely.
The intent of the from was to verify properly installed mitigation fixtures…if the permit meant anything, the customer could just provide that to the insurer and be done with the whole process.
The problem isn’t the form, and the problem isn’t the inspectors…it’s the state approving courses that teach next to nothing about code compliance even though building code is listed throughout the form. The state and educators have let this form be misinterpreted and improperly used, and it has been documented in several studies.
As for the ethics complaint, take a number and wait your turn. I’m a vocal guy, I speak my opinion and back it up with facts! Some don’t like this, the “do as little as possible” or “only do what is required of you” crowd hates this and takes every opportunity to try and quiet me down. Others think what I do isn’t a home inspection and is outside the scope of what is required in a home inspection. The only thing “required” in a home inspection is a minimum standard to keep inspectors from submitting substandard reports…and some even want to go below that.
Our industry is being prostituted by the realtors, and inspectors are taking it hook, line, and sinker! Prices are dropping faster than fat collects on Jack Osbourne’s ankles. Home inspections with both 4-point and 1802 for $250.00! This is absolutely crazy…I’m trying to show inspectors a different way, and getting nothing but resistance. There are some that see the light, and they are taking the right steps.
My realtor referrals are few and far between, and my home inspections start at $750! 5,000sf structures start at $2,500.00…99% of my referrals are lawyers and attorneys with a few mortgage brokers mixed in. My word of mouth business is impeccable and that is what creates a business. If I had a dollar for every time an agent said to me “*my inspector doesn’t take 6 hours to inspect a 2,000sf home, and he certainly doesn’t go to the building department on every inspection”. *Maybe that’s why his inspection is $250.00!
We also spoke at the conference, and you asked me to help you put together a wind mitigation course for internachi. You also said the reason behind it was my posts on this board showed just how little inspectors knew about wind mitigation. And I told you no, and I also told you the reason why. To teach inspectors correctly, so that no matter what form was produced they could complete it accurately, 3 weeks and 120 hours…minimum! It would take me 3 days to walk them through fenestrations and impact rated products.
To date, not one wind mitigation course…even yours which looks like every other course out there…actually teaches mitigation. The current courses available teach the same thing, the form from the outside in! This is a BIG BIG problem. So called instructors just teaching the same old information they were taught by Bill York or others…that’s not teaching, that’s regurgitating.
Like I said, you absolutely must get over this whole thing of being offended when someone refutes or disagrees with you. If that was the case for me, I would never get anything done. A difference of opinion can be educational and informative…I have made so many mistakes and learned so much from them that I look forward to making more…and I often do. But if your thinking I’ll apologize or sit around thinking about it, well that’s where you are wrong.
…and don’t forget to take your number for filing an ethics complaint, wouldn’t want you to lose your place in line 
Haters gonna hate. It doesnt take a genius to figure out the form isnt perfect. but people seem to like getting discounts for hurricane shutters and new roofs
I don’t need to get over anything. I don’t need to be silent when you insult every inspector instructor I know either. Many of which are not members here.
Here is one simple example how you insult everyone whom has every taught a wind mit class or “1802” class.
From Robert:
Simply since you have little experience in this business you do not understand that some of the first wind mitigation classes were from the University of Florida. They were about a better built and better design of homes for Florida(my start in the inspection business). In your ignorance you did not understand that is where the hip roof was highlighted as a preferred roof for Florida. They also stressed the importance of gable end bracing. Just as a couple of examples. Please don’t tell me what I know about building homes with wind mitigation, because I have actually built homes with what I learned.
Now, that being said, the NACHI class is 16 hours, double most of the other classes and it does teach wind mitigation construction. Understand that inspectors don’t build homes, we inspect them and document conditions. Hence the classes generally focus on filling out the 1802 form(you should read some of my other posts to learn that history).
I do agree that many inspectors are under educated in this convoluted topic because there is not simple page with a final answer. Until there is these type of discussions will continue(see comments above by others).
I asked for your input for two simple reasons, you have knowledge and to prove a point. You help prove that; you are not about building the profession you are all about tearing it down. You can not handle when the answer doesn’t get quoted from your books. You can not even be nice(as evident from your many snarky remarks).
I will post this one last time(I can have it printed into a code book if you think it would help). I believe you have lots of great answers(all code based), the wind mitigation form is a compromise between several groups so the answers may not always as evident as you think(think of it like our licensing law). I only can share what I know from the past and what I do today and have never said any of it was written into stone. My simple issue with you is you just don’t want to be nice. I know you don’t care about nice but I actually typed this for the benefit of others. Peace.
I started in construction actually building homes from the ground up 20+ years before you John, you have only been a licensed CRC since 2013. Before that you were a RRC since 2007, it’s not like you have been doing it since 1983 like myself. Also, the wind mitigation program started in 1993…I have the documentation to prove it if you would like to see it.
What UF was teaching was inaccurate and everyone knows this, that’s why it’s not being taught anymore but only by those who are doing it wrong.
When it comes to “actually building homes”, I did this for 4 1/2 years and built over 200+ plus homes…you? Cecil Built, Monarch Homes, Artistic Built, Nugent Homes…just to name a few.
“you are about tearing the profession down”…yes, that’s why I post specific answers using documentation and references so people have the right answer, because I’m tearing the profession down!
You can share what you know from the past, and it’s proven to be wrong each and every time! Truth is, there are those of us blazing new trails and those of us repeating the same old failed information that keeps things at the lowest level of performance and is accepting of nothing new…
Robert,
I know what you and others are trying to do, however, it is an uphill battle. Attacking some who may be able to help publicly, probably isn’t the right tact.
Now, one thing you and others need to understand, and I am sure you are finding this out with the little bru ha ha going on in your organization, there are many forces at work who would love to see the home inspection profession stay right where it is. In fact, there are several factions who would like to do away with licensing and that would allow anyone to do inspections…which would play into the hands of those that want inspections where virtually nothing is found wrong and there would be no repercussions for those performing these minimalist inspections.
The landscape of the home inspection industry is going to change, in my opinion, significantly. It will result in a hoard of 200 dollar instant experts, who will be gone in three years. But who cares…the deals closed and everyone is happy…except for the end user…the homeowner.
I wish you and the other “trailblazers” luck…you are going to need it.
Excellent points… I guess he misses the parts where I agree with most of what he writes(even though there is no final answer and may never be) I just thinks his approach is disgusting.
Much of the “bru ha ha” has to do with the same attitude. If we can correct that we(home inspectors) might make some steps forward.
Robert:
I see you got your home inspection license in 2011, so you didn’t actually build homes in Florida… I can assume you worked for someone that did?:p:roll:
I think the science/engineering behind the University of Florida’s training program was solid. Applying it to the wind mitigation form was not.
Again we come full circle, wind mitigation construction and the wind mitigation form for the insurance are two separate animals(this is probably where we differ). One day they match, when that happens 1802 forms will be near useless.
I actually think some of your thoughts on home inspections deserve discussion.
Whats the bruhaha?
They want him out of Fabi/off the board
why?
John, that is not correct. Please do not spread false rumors. As a FABI member, if you have any questions, please feel free to call me
Mostly the same kind of stuff you see here.
Basically he(and his cohorts) believe that Home Inspectors should inspect to code and others do not. This matches his/there interpretation of the 1802 form. There other kinds of allegations after that, most of which is childish from what I can tell.
The problem I have with him/them is their inability to have a discussion without insulting other inspectors. I believe there is some merit to having Home Inspectors “code trained” but feel it would be a mistake to think a home inspection or wind mitigation is a code inspection.
Maybe they should look into code enforcement.
weve had our drama here, haven’t we? 3+/- 1802 form changes, reinspection stuff, licensing, ect. there is also a troll always telling us how retarted we all are too, isn’t there? what happened to all those other haters?
My biggest disagreement with Robert is the fact that he doesn’t always take real world scenarios into consideration.
There are many products installed in the home that do not “specifically meet NOA compliance.”
A front entry door is one example. Are the thresholds tapped into the concrete.
Finding 3 shiners on a 2000 sf roof. Robert will discredit the entire roof system because of 1 loose strap and 3 shiners, while the reality is the roof’s not going anywhere. Should the strap be fixed, yes and its probably an easy one. In reality the entire roof system is not going to fail because of a few minor things. According to him it is wrong. 1 shiner = failure.
Everything constructed does not always meet NOA perfectly. I have yet to see any roof here with ring shank roofing nails BTW. Required for all roofs according to the NOA and TAS200, but I have looked, and not one yet has them. SO I guess every roof system installed in the entire county is a failure.
I still like Robert though. 
When we are required to know everything about all trades and applicable codes, we stop becoming home inspectors and start becoming something else. This person would require a lifetime of training to reach the point of knowledge.
What many fail to realize, at least in my opinion, is that until home inspectors have the ability to perform code inspections, they will always be looked on as some sort of startup industry that really doesn’t do a heck of a lot.
It is why, back in 2000 when I submitted my licensing proposal, that it had a three-tiered system. The highest of which would have been to do code inspections and help alleviate the burden of local municipalities, as well as elevate the profession for those that wanted to do those kind of inspections.
As long as the organization’s keep fighting each other, and everybody wants to do the least, and then make the most money doing the least, the profession will stagnate. And at some point, others will dictate what the home inspection industry becomes. I would suggest to all the newer inspectors, that you get involved on a local level, and try and put forth efforts to raise the bar as high as the bar can be raised.
Letting Realtors, contractors, insurance companies, dictate how you perform your inspections, will eventually spell the end of home inspections as we know it.
There is a building inspectors license already