While the perpetuation of a rumor can be a factor for sure, how did FPE get a bad rap to begin with?
Where there’s smoke there’s fire… No pun intended, of course…
Electrical problems probably are what I find the most of at any inspection.
Since every electrician I know of here (and I know a lot of them) summarily recommend replacing FPE and Zinsco panels, I would be foolish to the max to not go with their recommendations when I find these panels. After all, since there is no licensing for home inspectors in California, a licensed electrician, even one who got his license yesterday, is considered by the State of California to be much more knowledgeable about electricity than a yo-yo home inspector.
If the electrician came out to a property I had inspected to correct all the electrical problems I noted, but found an FPE panel for which I said nothing and my Clients were oblivious, I’m sure I would be hearing from a lot of people, especially those wanting me to pay the electrician’s bill, pay for a new panel, etc.
Simply because there is no licensing for California home inspectors, my opinion about things definitely is swayed by prevailing opinions of others who the State considers smarter than me on any specific subject.
Not to spark up your anger or shock you 
but it is like asking why do nails get a bad rap when used to fasten ledger boards.
Seriously though if they have been talked about all these years and it is now years later they ain’t getting any better.
Older and even more unsafe at this point.
I know it’s the reporter in the fedora and trench coat mentality, but I would HATE to be the person that didn’t inform my client of the potential hazard.
I’m not saying anyone is right or wrong to call out FPE panels, but me personally I feel it necessary to inform my clients.
Good one 
I can tell you with absolute certainty, I have had more breakers fall out of non-FPE panels than I have FPE panels.
A breaker falling out of a panel does not make a panel “unsafe.” It simply means there’s a damaged component (probably the breaker) that needs to be replaced.
The “numerous posts and articles” are all written by the same people, or reference the same sites over and over. Heck, I’ve made hundreds of posts myself on this subject. Is it the “quantity” that matters?
While I can only speculate, it seems that the “witch hunt” began after FPE was found to be fraudulently marking their components as UL Listed when listings had not been approved.
<<While I can only speculate, it seems that the “witch hunt” began after FPE was found to be fraudulently marking their components as UL Listed when listings had not been approved.>>>
It would seem that this in itself would be enough to merit mention in a report…
WOW, that’s all I can say.
**FP’s problems are DEFINITELY more than just rumors and accusations. **
I’ve seen at least two other videos showing how FP’s were put through current testing and failed to trip within any reasonable time.
You must watch that video…
Certainly an entity like BART would have followed this up with some type of investigation. Can anyone point me to that news story?
In all honesty, I couldn’t find anything on BART’s follow-up investigation, even if there was one.
That said…
Jeff, I have nothing but deepest respect for you, but the piece about FP using remote controlled devices to imitate tripping when testing – that part did it for me… How much further proof would we need?
I now recall that I have heard about FP’s testing trickery from other credible sources as well, so this is not the first.
The very fact that they did this, speaks volumes about what the rest of their R&D, production and testing process used to be, and subsequently what the expected reliability of their product is.
Ok I am getting in this discussion because I have inspected more FP panels than most 10 HI combined and a lot of electricians also. I see one most every day for the past 18 years and yesterday was the first time a breaker ever came loose on me and it was because I caught the edge of the dead front on the bottom breaker and pulled it loose. Those breaker handles are at a angle that makes it hard to remove the dead front with out hitting the handles and either flipping the breaker off or pulling it loose from the buss bar it would be absolutely rare to find a breaker loose enough on the buss bar to just fall out that is crazy talk.
I don’t find any more problems with FP panels than I do any other brand name.
Yes I have recommended replacement for some FP panels but I have also recommend replacement for some SQ D
The biggest problem I see with FP panels are the home inspectors. Most are scared to death of any thing electrical just look at the electrical thread on this board as it is the most used of all the threads. They don’t under stand electrical and are trying to learn
Here is a image from just today a SQ D Panel with split buss same as I had yesterday on a FP panel have a look. This is my marketing tool its better than CMI by a bunch ;-):D:p I find a ton of these. This was a 40 amp breaker pulling almost 40 amps and it did trip before I my test completed:shock:
Yep, correct again, Mr. Pope. It’s a 6 unit townhouse, with all the meters on one side. I did report on the neutral and egc’s needing isolated, and, as you can tell, I had concern just because of the name and stigma of the FPE panel.
Honestly, I know they are supposedly “known” to have problems, though I didn’t see any, and I’ve never had a breaker pop out or fall out when removing deadfronts. (I’ve actually had a GE breaker fall out on me before.)
I was just sure that if I didn’t mention it, and sparky came in for whatever reason, I’d be thrown under the bus for not at least giving my client the info about these panels, so I did.
I can understand an electrician wanting to change these out. Especially when work is slow $$$$$$$ :mrgreen:
As I have mentioned before, I was an electrician for over 30 years prior to starting my home inspection company.
I completely agree with Jeff Pope and Charlie B.
The breakers do not just fall out. You just need to watch what you are doing and not catch the cover on them while removing the cover. Most brands can have this issue if you don’t know what you are doing.
I had a couple of 50 year old homes the other day.
#1 had an FPE panel that had no issues. I put the same narrative in it that I always do. The narrative is the one that Jeff Pope has provided. Thanks Jeff!
#2 was an ITE panel with so many issues that I recommended that they consider a service change. This panel and the subpanel have so many problems that there is no sense in spending the money on repairing (it’s repairable). Just replace it.
Inspect each panel and let it stand on it’s own.
If you won’t remove all panel covers of a particular brand then maybe you should bring a licensed electrician with you?
Me personally after 10 years of listening to Nachi members, electrical contractors, building inspectors,
I inform clients to make them aware of the hype, concerns pertaining to FPE stab loc panels.
In my report I do not call out to replace or claim it is unsafe just due to manufacturer name. (I make aware of the concerns)
I do open the covers and like Charlie states it is like playing the game of operation. (overhanging breakers)
If there are issues within the panel I call out accordingly.
Most electrical contractors want to replace, why!! Make money on a new panel install.
It is what it is!! Kind of like Knob & tube wiring in a way.
I believe informing the client is the best way and give them the information to make a decision.
Many around here do not open, call as an immediate safety issue!!
I had one in my home and had replaced with another box that stated it would take minis (Sq D). Now I am faced with yet another panel (or maybe a sub)
I have listened to Jeff, Charlie and others. I make a decision on the 10 years of information I have gathered.
My guess, and this is just a guess: there aren’t any recent publicized investigations into this (such as BART follow-up that probably didn’t happen), because regardless of what they find, who is going to be held accountable?
Some independent commission or a government body (such as CPSC) could perhaps step in, but there are higher priorities these days, I would imagine.
And, more importantly: Why are we getting hung up on breakers falling or not falling out??
The issue at hand is that FP falsified test results because they knew darn well that their breakers don’t trip when they should.
Knowing that, how can anyone, in good faith, say that FP breakers are no more dangerous than the rest?
My suggestion here to follow up and not waste time arguing with macho men is to anyone reading this thread speak with real Electricians rather than Home Inspectors.
http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=104338&highlight=Federal+Pacific+Stabloc
The video is a great one! Good for HIs and others. During the testing you can actually see the metal strip bending all the way back as it should but the actual trip mechanism gets stuck and never moves to open the contacts. Classic FPE failure.
Of course one could argue when they removed part of the cover they damaged it or glued in insides as a trick so nothing moves, however, trick or not (I highly doubt it is) its certainly possible with the design of FPE breakers.
Another myth I have heard is that because FPE is out of business anyone can slander their products without defense, hence the target. However, the same holds true for many other companies being out of business yet they are not being called into question.
IMO there should be a recall, however I think whats making that difficult is the fact FPE closed a long time ago. My guess is by then it was to late, and no one stopped to really think a “UL listed” device maker could be doing that much fraud. Plus proving a now closed company cheated is also difficult since its safe to say equipment and records were discarded. I dont know, its just a random guess on this paragraph but it certainly would be interesting to know what really happened.
In regards to that, sorry for the second post, but Ive heard that as well over and over. Supposedly they had some type of electromagnet under a board to get them to trip? Really mind blowing.:shock: If you have any info, stories or links would be more than happy to learn more about:D
Also reading I just want to add a breaker falling out isnt as big of an issue of a breaker failing to trip. It may bring the breaker to buss design in question, but an poor buss connection while a fire hazard isnt anywhere near as dangerous as say 200ft of stapled to wood 14-2 reaching an ignition point. An electrical panel fire is a localized one, however an overheated cable can set off multiple fires simply because the number of wooden framing members its in contact with.
Don’t get me wrong, I’m not trying to imply that FPE breakers are a fabulous product. In fact, I find many problems with FPE panels, breakers and the like, but I find just as many problems with certain Square D models, GE & CH, just to name a few.
I take exception to the hyperbole that spreads like wildfire, mostly among home inspectors. I’ve read the data and the arguments provided on all the scare sites. The fact is, much of that data was completely misrepresented by people calling themselves experts and/or engineers. The fact that a double-pole breaker doesn’t instantly trip at 135% of its capacity, does not mean it’s defective or that it “failed.”
The “data” may have been accurate, but the interpretation of the data was wrong. In fact, a properly functioning breaker can take more than 10 seconds to trip at 3 times its Continuous Current Rating.
Judge for yourself
I know what i recommend lol
Any way what is 1200.00 for a piece of mind or we just scared of pissing in a agents corn flakes?