GFCI allowance on two conductor circuits will one day reap a harvest of deaths and damaged equipment as these outlets age to the point of failure. Owners never test them or consider what they are plugging into them and they do fail regularly.
I will not recommend this “fix” because it is a compromise and having the ground as well is far superior.
Cameron I am with you also I just found another dud yesterday. House is only 6 years old.
Best location too, right beside the sink.
I would have to disagree here.
Circuits with GFCI’s are safer than those without. An equipment grounding conductor will not provide protection against electrocution, but a GFCI device will.
Obviously, a defective GFCI device offers no protection against electrocution, but reliance on an EGC to save your life will ultimately prove to be fatal. The best you can hope for is that the breaker trips before the NEXT person is electrocuted.
Read it closer.
This is a very untrue statement and I would ask for some text to back this statement up.
Having an EGC in no way makes a GFCI device more superior. Having an EGC on a GFCI device plays no role in the safety of that device at all.
Having an EGC on any type of device or equipment does no prevent anyone from being hurt.
The EGC is installed to open the fuse or breaker in the event of a fault. If the fault is a high impedance fault then the device does not open at all even though the EGC is carrying current.
Again, I would disagree. I am far from being an expert, but my understanding of electrical systems does not support this claim. I am happy to change my opinion when/if offered evidence to the contrary.
The GFCI device is the ultimate in “superiority.” The ECG adds nothing in regards to safety to a GFCI protected circuit, nor does it provide “back-up” in the event that the GFCI device fails.
Yes, there are somewhat of a compromise, but do you consider the cost to rewire an existing structure as a reasonable means to allow a person to use a 3 prong cord in an older 2 wire circuit? Would you rather they use an adapter back to 2 prong or cut the ground prong off?
As far as failing, the newer standard has the device fail in the off position.
GFI retrofits has been allowed by the code for years and we have yet to see the number of fatalities that you are waiting to see.
Explain to me how the new GFCI in the 2006 home I just inspected can fail both with tester and without. No crossed wires and have a ground?
Gee I once bought a new car and had a flat tire before I got home .
I have seen two year old widows that have lost there seal .
My Wife is as close to perfect and I only give her a 9.5 .
Tell me why you some times disagree with those who are experts in there field .
No one and nothing is perfect.
If I understand what is being said by some here I think I could take a metal box and connect the equipment grounding conductor to this metal box and run that equipment grounding conductor to a ground rod then connect straight from the breaker to that metal box and hold it in my hand without any harm.
Is this correct?
Some on this forum seem to think that a connection to earth somehow makes everything safe.
Is this correct?
There are four reasons to connect to earth. The electrician connects the system to earth for the very same reason the utility connects to earth.
250.4 (A) Grounded Systems.
(1) Electrical System Grounding. Electrical systems that are grounded shall be connected to earth in a manner that will limit the voltage imposed by lightning, line surges, or unintentional contact with higher-voltage lines and that will stabilize the voltage to earth during normal operation.
What makes the equipment grounding conductor work is not the connection to earth but the bonding of the equipment grounding conductor to the neutral in the service equipment.
250.4 (A) Grounded Systems.
(5) Effective Ground-Fault Current Path. Electrical equipment and wiring and other electrically conductive material likely to become energized shall be installed in a manner that creates a low-impedance circuit facilitating the operation of the overcurrent device or ground detector for high-impedance grounded systems. It shall be capable of safely carrying the maximum ground-fault current likely to be imposed on it from any point on the wiring system where a ground fault may occur to the electrical supply source. The earth shall not be considered as an effective ground-fault current path
This is accomplished by
250.24
(B) Main Bonding Jumper. For a grounded system, an unspliced main bonding jumper shall be used to connect the equipment grounding conductor(s) and the service-disconnect enclosure to the grounded conductor within the enclosure for each service disconnect in accordance with 250.28](http://code.necplus.org/document.php?field=jd&value=necss:70-2011:id02011003778#70-2011:id02011003778).
The equipment grounding conductor is connected to the grounded conductor (neutral see Article 200) in the service equipment which causes the result found in 250.4(A)(5)
The connection to earth plays no role in the breaker tripping or the fuse blowing. The connection to earth plays no role in safety of the system. It is the connection to the neutral in the service equipment that gives the safety in the event of a low impedance fault.
Take this same fault with as little as 10 ohms and the equipment grounding conductor will not trip a 15 amp breaker and anyone coming in contact with an appliance that has this fault is in serious trouble. 120 volts divided by 10 ohms equals 12 amps not enough to trip a 15 amp breaker but more than enough to cause serious damage to anyone coming in contact with the appliance.
Math don’t lie so in the scenario outlined in the paragraph above the equipment grounding conductor is doing nothing to make the circuit safe.
So what is the point of having a ground on any circuit, why not just have GFCI’s?
Roy this is the new tamper proof design GFCI.
I want to know as stated by Mr. Witt how they can be safe if they fail to trip.
This is not the first one I have found either.
I rarely recommend a complete rewire(certainly not in the case of a few open ground 3-prongs), that would be expensive. Actually, I guess the reality is I never recommend any particular fix when it comes to electrical, I just report on the current condition and call for an electrician to repair. They make the call.
New generation GFCI devices will remain open if improperly wired and/or defective. In addition, they will not reset if there is no power to the circuit.
Did you use the internal test button? If so, what was the result?
Based on many of your recent posts, I might suggest you purchase new testing equipment.
The three-light testers are unreliable and inaccurate. SureTest provides analyzers that will tell you exactly how much current was required to open the device and the length of time it took to open. If the device does not open, SureTest provides you with information on the duration of the test in seconds, and a measurement of the load applied.
Now that is the most sensible response from you yet Jeffrey!
I think you will find, Kevin (if you scour my 10K+ posts on this MB), that the vast majority of my posts are “sensible.” I take exception when I feel that my chosen profession is under attack - whether external attacks from non inspectors, or internal attacks from inspectors spreading false and/or misleading information.
I don’t agree with allot of your Posts!
I don’t expect that everyone agrees with me. That’s what makes for good debate and sharing of information.
As I’ve always maintained, I am not an expert in any field, but I have a good understanding of those things to which I am tasked to inspect. I am always open to learning new and additional “things,” and if/when I am presented with factual information that might contradict my current position, I will modify my position to reflect my new “knowledge base.”
Additionally, I am always willing to share my knowledge and experience with anyone who may be interested.
*For the past 15 to 20 years the GFCI type receptacles will not function in any way should there be a failure. *
*The misconception that the EGC in some way stops anyone from being shocked is simply wrong. The purpose of the EGC is twofold. First it keeps any exposed metal stable at all times. To explain this would take a very long paragraph that no one would read but it is to insure that the level of potential stays stable. *
The second is for a low impedance path for fault current to return to the neutral at the service equipment in order to open the breaker. Should this fault current be of a high impedance of as little as 8 ohms then a 15 amp breaker will not open. This can occur in appliances that have motors and one winding short to the case of the appliance.
*Not by anyone who knows what they are talking about. I can also guarantee that there are many here that would come to your defense. *
Take a few minutes and think about the EGC. Does it not land on the same terminal bar as the white conductor?
If the white conductor of a receptacle touches the EGC does it trip the breaker? No. Why?
If the black wire touches the white does it trip the breaker? Yes. Why?
If the black wire touches the EGC does it trip the breaker? Yes. Why?
The black and white wire are the current carrying conductors for the receptacle. The EGC is installed in case there is a fault the current is carried without going through the load (the high impedance) back to the neutral in the service equipment which causes a high current draw and opens the breaker of fuse. This connection to the neutral is done through the main bonding jumper.
If it was the connection to earth that made it safe then the EGC would not be needed as in the service equipment the neutral is connected to the grounding electrode (ground rod).
You are blowing my mind, but i’m tracking mostly. 
What I don’t get is the idea that a ground doesn’t provide protection. Wouldn’t a person be a high impedance path and in the absence of a ground, fault current would potentially kill them? Isn’t the ground present to provide that low impedence path instead?