Government mandate to thin the walls to save $10

Anyway, the government has a funny way of making voluntary programs as good as mandatory. For instance, there are many stores that now refuse to sell anything other than Energy Star rated appliances and water heaters.

Wanna know why there are new speed limit signs across Wyoming? Feds threatened to cut off federal transportaion funding unless Wyoming voluntarily…

OK. I see where Ben was wrong. But damn people, let him know his mistake and insure he learns from it. So he took a persons word at something and got burned. Who in life hasn’t. I am sure he has learned his lesson and consider remoiving the video and the person who has provided the information (Tankless water heater guy) needs to be banished from the organization. Beating a dead horse does no one any good. I am sure Nick and Ben see this area and will act according and responsibily. At least I hope so

I my humble opinion…

Agreed.

But, Kenton and Ben did supply a brief narrative relating to water heaters older than 4 years, I believe.

GE sells thousands upon thousands of water heaters through Home Depot. The lowest limited manufacturers warranty they provide is 6 years. There’s a reason for this.

Now, GE doesnt actually MANUFACTURE the unit, nor for that matter does Sears (Kenmore).

BUT… the warranties are quite similar.

That’s what the Rinnai expert said on the show. Kenton and I thought that was really amazing information. I didn’t research everything that he said. It’s a show. It’s not a training video. Although I learned a lot.

The expert says that there are 300 burners that are individually controlled inside the Rinnai heat exchanger. I think that statement is amazing. I didn’t research everything that he said. It’s a show. It’s not a training video. Although I learned a lot.

The expert says that the Rinnai water heater can last 25 years without any major failures if serviced every year. I think that statement is amazing. I didn’t research what he said. It’s a show. Although I learned a lot.

I learned from a renowned expert that the best practice to disinfect a faucet is to use a flame. I think that statement is amazing. I didn’t research everything that he said. It’s was a show. Although I learned a lot.

I’m not sure that Engergy Star and the NAECA standards are the same. The NAECA standards are in relation to those yellow tags on the side of every appliance. The Energy Star is something else, right?

OK OK

It’s not a training video. I get it. My apologies for calling it one.

Now to your promotional post that started this thread.

It contains factual errors. Agreed?

This board acts as “the brains of NACHI” (Nick said that)

So when a statement gets challenged don’t blame the “expert”.

An interviewer should have challenged some of these “facts” while filming or in post production so a better product could be produced.

JMHO

All of us want truthful information in the end to serve our clients better.

I agree. Can you help me? I would love to have you as an impartial reviewer of videos that may be mistakenly considered as an education/training video. Are you available to view videos, prior to me putting them up online.

I get a lot of sh*t from guys who think that we’re perfect over here in NACHI.TV land, but I’m not. I’m a family guy, 3 kids all under 6, I work about 80 hours a week, mostly up till 1 or 2 am in the morning (check the messag board - I’m probably on), and I’m just doing my best to provide InterNACHI members a superior product at an affordable price. And I highly value thoughtful, pro-active criticism (any donkey can bray loud :slight_smile: ) And when I’m wrong, I’m wrong.

Are you available, Mike?

p.s. I’m not implying that you or anyone else on the message board is a donkey. xoxo

Ben, I would be glad to help out.

I suggest several act as reviewers.

A one person reviewer is going to miss things.

There is a lot of talent among the posters on this board.

Let’s use them if they are willing.

Speaking of checking the facts… We’re just about to put up another free online course for InterNACHI. Wood-destroying Organisms. This will be a training course. There’s been months of research and collaboration between Department of Agriculture of Ohio and Arkansas, the EPA, University of Ohio and University of Arkansas, and NACHI.TV. There’s an enormous effort towards accuracy in this upcoming course. It’s not going to be just a show on TV.

Thanks. I’ll call you this week sometime if that’s okay.

Look forward to it.

Suggestion?

On NACHI.TV, on the left, how about you categorize those videos into
TRAINING
and
Others…

?

then we’ll know which are not training videos, and which are to be taken with a grain of salt, or not construed as being training…

That’s a good idea. Right now on NACHI.TV, most are under “Videos” and only a few are under “Advanced Education.”

“Video” is like watching TV. “Education” - you should expect more.

All training, instruction, and education courses (classroom, online text and online video) are here. This where one goes to get the big, master list of education.

Ben…you’re just another vendor. When people try to sell us stuff and we find it to be inferior…we raise hell.

Grow some skin and give us some accurate information.

Since NACHI Tv is for profit and is separate from the association, it would be appropriate for you to offer to compensate those willing to help you make some dollars with your videos.

If not, you may have pierced the corporate veil by intermingling not-for-profit resources (such as members) in your for profit business.

Just a thought.

Yikes, sorry for causing such a caffufle.

I love you too, James.;-):wink:

I believe our guest was accurate throughout the video.

But being a Rinnai vender, he was probably exaggerating. Apparently for many inspectors, they were harmed by the exaggeration/bending of the facts.

Here’s the data that I found:

"The water heater energy efficiency standards we are adopting today will have a positive impact on consumers. Consumers with electric water heaters would save $13.05 per year while those with natural gas water heaters would save about $12.74 per year on average. Of course these savings are not free, consumers will have to pay an average increase of $101 for electric and $58 for gas water heaters. Note that the total average increased cost for electric and gas water heaters are $105 and $118, respectively, due to the phase out of the current insulating foam blowing agent HCFC–141b and the compliance to resist ignition of flammable vapors on gas water heaters voluntarily agreed to between the manufacturers and the Consumer Product Safety Commission.

The simple payback for cost increases due to efficiency standards is 7.4 years for electric and 3.6 years for gas water heaters. The lifetime owning cost or life-cycle costs are lower than life-cycle costs on current water heaters by $23 for electric and by $30 for gas water heaters.

The design improvements the Department considered are thicker insulation and heat traps on both gas and electric water heaters and an improved heat exchanger (flue baffle) on gas water heaters. These improvements result in a four percent increase in energy efficiency for electric and an eight percent increase in energy efficiency for gas water heaters."


That’s a direct copy-past quote from:
4475 Federal Register/Vol. 66, No. 11/Wednesday January 17, 2001/Rules and Regulations

DEPARTMENT OF ENERGY
Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy
10 CFR Part 430
[Docket Number EE–RM–97–900]
RIN 1904–AA76
Energy Conservation Program for Consumer Products: Energy Conservation Standards for Water
Heaters
AGENCY: Office of Energy Efficiency and Renewable Energy, Department of Energy (DOE).
ACTION: Final rule.
SUMMARY: The Department of Energy (DOE or Department) has determined that revised energy conservation standards for water heaters will result in significant conservation of energy, are technologically feasible, and are economically justified. On this basis, the Department is today amending the existing energy conservation standards for water heaters.
EFFECTIVE DATES: The effective date of this rule and standard is January 20, 2004.


So,
(1) the manufacturers did things to increase efficiency of water heater tanks, which included changing the heat exchanger (flue baffle). That’s what our guest said.

(2) The increase of efficiency is 4% (electric) and 8% (gas). The increase in efficiency is minimal in my opinion, (although the DOE calls it “significant”). Our guest said the increase was 1 and 1/2 % - exaggeration on his part.

(3) The increase in efficiency equates into only approximately $13 in savings per year (that’s only $1 per month!). That’s hardly a savings in my opinion.

(4) The average increase cost for a water heater is about $110. I think the average cost for a tank went up more than the DOE’s expectation.

(5) In 2004, manufacturers did something to the heat exchanger to increase efficiency (I don’t know what - it could have been a thinning of the tube - I don’t know), but it only increased efficiency by 4%. Which equates to only approximately $13 per year. That’s no increase! On top of that, the price of a water heater increased by around $110. So that “savings” is competely wiped out by the increase in the cost of tank!

(6) Our guest said that the life expectancy of a tank is now only 3 to 5 years based upon his experience. I disagree, but I have little experience with removing tanks from homes that have leaked or failed.

(7) It appears that our guest was correct in many ways. I agree that he was biased and exaggerating the numbers and bending the facts. But it seems that he was correct on the important points.

Anyone see things differently?

I apologize to all those inspectors who were misled by the guest who appeared on the NACHI.TV show about tankless heaters. I apologize to those who have expressed that NACHI.TV (me in particular) has done a disservice in some way by not doing research and confirming everything a guest may propose, state, or conjecture.

In the future, we shall strive to do better and ask our guests to back up whatever they are saying.

I ask for your forgiveness. I take full responsibility.

(If anyone else has any more information about the efficiency increase and the changing of the heat exchanger of water heater tanks, I’d appreciate sending it to me or posting it on the message board.)

Here is the link to the DOE document that mandates the efficiencies for tanks in 2004, from which I got the above quote.
http://www.epa.gov/EPA-IMPACT/2001/January/Day-17/i1081.htm

Sorry Ben, yes I do see it differently.

This hub bub started when you stated in post #1

As Joe F. pointed out the minimum warranty he has seen on a tank is 6 years.

Now how likely is it that the tankless water heater advocate is is correct?

Do any of us want HIs out there parroting the tankless water heater advocate’s statement?

BTW-Personally I found the video useful and informative.

You ARE just another vendor, Ben.

I did not say that to demean vendors, but to point out that your last name does not make you a part of the management of NACHI in your for-profit endeavors or require allegiance to your private ventures.

You seem to be taking advantage of people and making it appear that they have some NACHI duty to assist you in making money. You solicit free pictures and information from them which you sell back to them with NACHI Tv. You utilize, through the use of this board, conversations to solicit their ideas to assist you in improving your warranty products…then blast people who refuse to participate with you on your terms.

NACHI Tv wants to promote itself, in competition with other means of training, as a valuable tool to inspectors. If this is to be true someday…it will result from a better (screened) product providing accurate information.

Your guest did not provide us with the erroneous information, as you suggest. You did. (He provided it to YOU and you passed it on to US.)

A couple of our members took this information to the field and came home looking like morons. Your inferior product could have caused more harm than that if they actually used your suggested verbage in a report.

Like any other vendor…you have a duty to ensure a superior product and…like any other vendor…will be held accountable by the membership when you fail to do so.

The problems, as I see them, are conflicting sources if information.

For instance, let’s take Ben’s statement:

Heat is a great didinfectant. Autoclaves have been used to didinfect surgical instruments for years and years. So, there’s no surprise that heat works great. But, I doubt that any surgeon would pass a scalpel over an open flame and watch it get hot. Damage to the instrument would likely occurr. But back to Ben’s statement…

While it may be true, let’s think for a moment as to which section of this faucet gets disinfected. The answer is which portion gets cherry red.

So, when examining disinfection methods, whether with flame, alcohol, or bleach, the fact remains that a majority of the faucet doesnt get disinfected at all. This does not negate the reality that the initial statement was factual.

The second and more profound revelation and reality is that the preferred collection point should, in fact, be at a location where the dispensing of water is for human consumption. Dispensers intended for human consumption have all the ANSI/NSF rules of the SWDA applied to them.

BUT… these locations typically are decorative, and manu have plastic parts. So, when thinking about applying a flame to any of these surfaces, it’s plan to see that significant damage can occur to the faucet.

I believe that enlightenment and evoking a logical thought process is a primary goal of any educator. But, when presenting material, it is a tough spot for the educator to be in, as many sutuations are different, and sometimes unique.

Just because Ben stated that a 4 year old WH may be on its way out does not equate to me buying into it. Again, if I got one thing out of the course than what I knew prior to taking it, he was successful.

We can agree to disagree on things.