Great disposal hookup!

Originally Posted By: cbuell
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I found this on yesterday’s inspection-----“functional” too! This belongs in Ripley’s Believe-it-or-not-----it is phone wire run to the unit----and it looks like they at least used two wires for each conductor.


Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Yikes! That’s a fire waiting to happen.



Inspection Nirvana!


We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The strange thing is the insulation doesn’t seem to be burned


Originally Posted By: jonofrey
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Leave that disposal on for any length of time and I’ll bet you that wire gets hot.


They've probably just been lucky that they haven't run the thing for more than a several seconds.


--
Inspection Nirvana!

We're NACHI. Get over it.

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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*** Warning , theoretical assessment, don’t try this at home kids ***


I put a pen to paper (and a calculator) to this. 24ga wire is 26.2 ohms per 1000 ft. Assuming paralleled pairs it nulls out the down and back so effective resistance is .0262 per foot. 1/2hp motor is 9.8a FLA per 430.148

When you run the numbers it comes out that you are dropping about a quarter of a volt per foot and dissipating about a watt and a third per foot. If this is only a couple feet the disposal will never notice and I doubt the wire woulds get warm to the touch in the minute or so that the disposal runs.
All that said this is still a serious safety issue that needs to be addressed.
Again the reason I prefer cord and plug connected disposals and dish washers with a receptacle properly installed for the purpose.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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When I see plug type connections to an under sink outlet, I ask that the outlet box (it is is surface mounted and not in the wall) be a waterproof box.


I have been shocked, too many times, when under a sink and something springs a leak.


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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A home inspector might be able to deem the interior of the sink base is a wet location but a “code” inspector can’t. If you used that logic you would need bubble covers on every outlet and switching location in all the bathroom and kitchen areas. Every place that could possibly get wet in a calamity pretty much includes the whole house if you are in windstorm country.


Originally Posted By: rbennett
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SSS (Startup Surge Suppressor) to keep from dimming the light if a fork is to be ground up


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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I only call it out because of my past experience.


One rarely gets water sprayed on bathroom outlets.

I have been called for repairs (not as an inspector, but as a homesmith) where there is water spraying from pipes under a sink (no sink shut-offs and customer could not find and/or didn't know about the main water shut-off. Yeah, I know. I have some real inexperienced customers).

Leaky drain traps and soaked plywood under the sink. Bad grounding, or no grounding. I have actually had two instances where waster was spraying from the dishwasher drain directly unto the outlet and dripped on the floor and the client stood in it with bare feet.

Undersink, non wall flush mounted outlets should be in waterproof boxes and be GFCI. That's my position from a safety POV.

I don't do code and home inspectors (at least in this state and in the shadow of those crack City of Chicago code inspectors) can get in trouble for doing so.

State home inspector law says 'significantly deficient' is non functional or a safety hazard.


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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"… Bad grounding, or no grounding."


How can you have that in "pipeland"?

As I said, a home inspector can pretty much say anything they want but a sink base is not a wet location in the NEC. The electrician you have the customer call is going to say unkind things about you if you tell them it is.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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). If the guy they call wants to say its OK and therefore assume all liability is someone gets shocked, hey, that’s great with me.



Will Decker


Decker Home Services


Skokie, IL 60076


wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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You should be calling out “bad ground” “no ground” or any other clear defect you find but unilaterally designating this as a wet location and expecting wet location wiring methods when no recognized code making organization agrees is unwarranted.


Originally Posted By: kelliott
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This is stretching I’m sure, but what about GFCI within 6 ft of sink? I know in my own house, my disposer and light over the sink is wired into one of my kitchen GFCI’s. Might the 6 ft rule come into play with the disposer?


Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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The GFCIs in the kitchen have nothing to do with how close they are to the sink. All receptacles serving the countertop have to be GFCI. On the other hand they CAN’T serve any other outlets so the disposal can’t be on the countertop circuits.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Greg;


We are instructed in this state that we are not limited or expected to inpect according to code. There are a lot of conditions that are in complience with code, yet are not safe. Our state law requires that we call out unsafe conditions.

In a house built in 1955, GFCI in bathrooms were not required. Thus, if a 1955 bathroom, never substantually remodeled, has no GFCI, it complies with code, does it not?

Yet, if one of my clients gets shocked or killed because of the lack of GFCI in a bathroom and I didn't call it out (Hey, it was code!), I get sued and lose my license.

But if I do call it out (as I do) and the seller gets some sparky to come in and say it was code (sometimes they even call me to yell at me for not knowing 'code') I ask if the electrician has put in writing, with his license number and insurance cert, that it is safe.

Guess what. They never do.

BUT, the seller is happy and maybe they can get my buyer and my buyer's realtor and my buyer's lawyer to go along with it. Fine. Two months later, I get a call back because some 13 year old kid was blow drying his hair after taking a shower and gets REALLY shocked (2 days in the hospital, burns on the bottom of both feet) and they are REAL pissed (I would be too) and want to sue me.

I refer them to my report and note that I called out the SAFETY HAZARD and they made the choice to accept the house in that condition and not even fix it themselves.

I then direct them to the electrician (whose name I took (they never give me their license number, for some reason ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) )) and tell them to talk to him. After all, HE was the one who said it was 'code'.

See my point.

Not trying to be a jerk here, but I am REQUIRED to call out safety hazards.

Are you?


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell
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I would agree if this was citing current codes that postdated construction.


I am just saying you are writing NEW code that does not exist. That is different from ignoring grandfathered exceptions.


I’m sure the electricians love the extra work you sell for them but that doesn’t make it right.


Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Mr. Fretwell;


Are you a state licensed home inspector?

Are you licnesed by the state of Illinois.

If not, to both of these questions, please refrain from criticising me as you are not in my situation and are therefore not qualified to have an opinion.

If you want to understand my points, read the Ilkinois state law.

Its my business and my license, therefore I you will excuse me if I don't go along with ever well meaning know nothing who wants to criticise my actions.

Thanks;


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
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I can see Will’s point he is better off calling out safety hazards then not.


To that end each person has to know where they want to draw the line. Calling under the sink a wet location is more than a stretch to me but to each their own.

Will being an electrician I have to say something about this. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


wdecker wrote:
When the electrician:

a) gets state licensing (In Illinois, the only trades that are state licensed are plumbers and roofers)

b) puts his evaluation in writing, on his letterhead.

c) on the written report, documents his license numbers AND E & O insurance certification

d) states, in writing on his report that the item is safe

Then I will care.


Come on...be honest now....what businessman would do that?

You HIs do not sign a report stating anything is 'safe' do you?

You seem to be putting a spin on this that because the ECs do not provide this written statement of safety that means the item is unsafe.

Say you inspect a set of stairs that complies perfectly with every building code.

Would you then sign a paper saying that the stairs are safe? (ie no falls)

Would your refusal to sign mean the stairs are unsafe?

Just a thought...


Bob


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: wdecker
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Bob;


Maybe I am not the one to be completely onjective about stairs (or porches) and codes. I live near Chicago where many people die each year from buildings, porches and stairs that the city code pople have deemed to be 'code'.

Code is a bare minimum safety standard. It is a smuch a political document as it is a technical spec. McCormick Place, Chic ago's large exebition hall, had a large addition put in. When code inspected, it was found to have hundreds or significant violations. What did they do? Fix the violations? No, they changed the code.

Bob, as a state licensed home inspector, I HAVE to call out all safety hazards. Just because something meets code, does not mean it is safe.

I do not have the luxury that an electrician does, to use 'code' as a defense. The state law holds me to a higher standard.

Of course I draw a line and as I learn and experience more, that line moves. It was the same with you when you were training as an electrician.

I have seen a person shocked by water coming from under a sink that they were standing in. I have seen a guy die because his disposer was not GFCI protected (the damn plug was only two prong, fer gosh sakes).

If I see a safetym hazard, I call it out. A lot of the time, I get calls from the sellers electrician who tells me I am wrong (based on code). I ask that he puts his opinion in writing, on letterhead and with his license number and insurance cert. They rarely do.

But state law requires that I have to!

See the difference?


--
Will Decker
Decker Home Services
Skokie, IL 60076
wjd@DeckerHomeServices.com

Originally Posted By: kelliott
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Will, the only thing I can say about it is this. If you write a condition up that you deem unsafe, and push comes to shove, and you end up in court, or even just in prelitigious argument about it, if the only one saying it’s unsafe is you, then you’re pretty much out on that limb by yourself without a net. I think most judges, or mediators are going to dismiss it as your personal opinion as opposed to your professional opinion. If you write it up, and its a clear violation of a city code, you now have a backup to your opinion, and it becomes more than just your personal whimsical opinion. It’s now a professional opinion, because you have an industry standard that backs up what you’re saying. Before I tell the homeowner there’s a problem, I need to have something I can quote that shows the “problem” is more than my own personal whim. If the code is there, I can now show there are other professionals who agree with me, and that the industry itself has deemed this condition as unsafe.


So I think I need to be sure I am offering more than my own opinion if I write something up. I try to remember that with any write-up, there will likely be a professional in that particular field following me, and if they consistently find things I’ve written up that are not code violations but simply things I don’t like to see, I think my reputation as a professional will soon suffer.