A caveman response…
Very simply…Yes, more GEC’s are better than none.
Bless your heart Robert,
250.50 states that if any of the seven items found in 250.52 are present all are required to be used as the grounding electrode system. These seven items are, 10 feet of metal water pipe in contact with earth, metal of a building if it is properly grounded, concrete encased electrode which is the rebar in the footing, a ground ring that encircles the building, a pipe or rod, a 2 sq. ft. metal plate or any other underground metal such as oil drums.
Three of these seven items are required to be supplemented by an additional electrode. A water pipe in 250.53(D)(2) is required to have an additional electrode and a rod, pipe or plate is required in 250.56 to be augmented by one additional electrode.
A concrete encased, metal parts of a building that are effectively grounded, a ground ring or any underground metal structure can be stand alone electrodes as long as none of the other electrodes are present.
Although metal water pipes are fading away it was a very popular installation in years gone by. If there is metal water pipe in contact with earth for 10 feet or more it is required to be used as part of the grounding electrode system but it must be supplemented and most of the time it was done with a ground rod or a piece of ¾ conduit.
If no electrodes are present such as metal water pipe then ground rods or pipes can be installed and this will be the electrode system.
The sole purpose of the electrode system is to dissipate surges such a lightning or contact with higher voltages systems (250.4). The rules for the electrode system have gone unchanged except to add additional requirements for the steel of a building for over 75 years.
The size of the conductors going to different electrodes seem to me to be a little loop-sided and in my opinion should be reconsidered by the Code Making Panel responsible for setting the rules.
A rod, pipe or plate electrode never needs a conductor larger than a #6 no matter the size of the service.
A concrete encased electrode which is the absolute best of the seven never requires a conductor larger than a #4.
A ground ring that encircles the building and one that is used with lighting rods never is required to be larger than a #2.
These three rules is set out in 250.66 (A), (B) & (C)
The conductor for a metal water pipe that is used as an electrode is to be based on the size of the service. A 200 amp service will require a #4 while a 400 amp service will require a #1/0.
In my opinion that makes little or no sense at all.
There can be high impedance across a water meter during a fault. I posted a detailed explanation of the reasons in another post in the report writing thread a few months ago.
You mentioned supplementary grounding connections. Supplementary grounding connections are optional. Supplementary grounding connections should not be confused with supplemental grounding connections.
Water meters are removable. The water meter may be removed for any of a number of reasons. It is a common practice, for example, to remove the meter when a house is winterized. That is the main reason for the need of a jumper.
Many newer meters have plastic bodies. The utility companies typically do not install bonding jumpers when they replace a metal body meter with a plastic body meter.
Switching from jumpers,I was taught during training that it was wrong for say the cable company to run their own ground rod as more than one at a property could cause problems.
The cable company says it is needed if the GEC would be longer than the co-axial conductor from the ground block to the closest television
This is very true
250.50 Grounding Electrode System.
All grounding electrodes as described in 250.52(A)(1) through (A)(6) that are present at each building or structure served shall be bonded together to form the grounding electrode system.
Any grounding electrode that is present must be bonded together.
I had a call last month where the electrician was turned down on a pole barn that he had wired. There was an electric fencing unit that had a ground rod that he didn’t tie to the service.
He called me to see if it was required that the electric fencing unit rod be bonded to the electrical service.
As can be seen with the first word in 250.50 it was required to be bonded together with all the other electrodes present.
Cable, telephone, dish, rotor antenna or any other item requiring a grounding electrode must be bonded to the electrical service electrode system.
Ok I follow now.
The key is they need to be bonded.
But hang on to my hat.
Why even bother with a seperate ground rod at all if you still need to run back to the meter area with a bond .
Most of the communications articles in Chapter 8 of the NEC will require that the grounding electrode conductor to not be longer that 20 feet. If the service electrode can be reached within this 20 feet a seperate rod is not required.
If the service electrode can not be reached the a new rod is installed and this rod is then bonded to an electrode at the service.
Got ya and thanks for the reply.
Wish I knew the logic but at least now I know the logistics.
When doing the cable the same rule applied but was changed to as I mentioned above.
Important difference…you are speaking of Bonding…I am speaking of ensuring the GES and the GE connection is made properly to complete the intended path over a removable object like the water meter IF the GEC is installed improperly and to the wrong location.
I am not refering to the addtional bonding of the water systems in the dwelling…that is someone elses position and is fine…I am only refering to what my picture shows…the need for a bonding jumper over the removable item in the GE systems as it pertains to " Grounding "…bonding is a WHOLE different subject in itself.
In your picture mike it indeed shows a bonding connection which CAN take place elsewhere in the piping system which is perfectly fine…my statement was to the connection of the GES only…and if you indeed terminate to the WRONG place or side of a water meter in my example…a bonding jumper is REQUIRED by 250.68(B)
Kinda all I am dealing with in regards to the post here…if the water pipe system is less than 10’ then it is not an issue on the GES/GE side…and the onus then goes to bonding of the water piping systems and brings in 250.104 indeed…
But what is VERY imporant is we are dealing with TWO difference areas here…I simply do not want the guys to star confusing grounding aspects with bonding aspects in a short forum thread where at which any point they could come in without reading the whole topic and get very confused…it’s my only concern when topics broaden within a thread.
Paul
From the point 60 inches where the pipe enters the building to the point where there is120 inches of pipe covered outside is the electrode which gives a total of not less than 180 inches of metal pipe that is part of the metal pipe electrode.
In the Holt slide the Grounding Electrode Conductor comes from the panel and is landing on the interior side of the water meter not on the exterior side all within the first 60 inches and a bonding jumper is completing the path of the grounding electrode as outlined in 250.52(A)(1).
In 250.52(A) (1) there is wording that states:
A metal underground water pipe in direct contact with the earth for 3.0 m (10 ft) or more (including any metal well casing effectively bonded to the pipe) and electrically continuous (or made electrically continuous by bonding around insulating joints or insulating pipe) to the points of connection of the grounding electrode conductor and the bonding conductors.
The bonding jumper outlined in the Holt slide would be fulfilling the underlined part of section 250,52(A)(1).
Section 250.53(D)(1) is what I have been addressing and this section is to fulfill the requirements of 250.104(A).
In the Holt slide the pipe from the connection of the Grounding Electrode Conductor and the interior metal water pipe is all metal water pipe and there is no need now to install a bonding jumper for 250.104 as the Grounding Electrode Conductor has fulfilled this requirement.
If there was no water meter or other removable device on the metal water pipe then only one conductor would need to be installed which would fulfill both requirements 250.52 and 250.104.
As cities keep expanding their limits further and further out encompassing more and more older houses that used wells with metal piping systems and these houses are converted to the city water system with a nonmetallic pipes supplying the metal water pipes that are on the interior of the house, there seems to be more and more confusion on the use of bonding jumpers around removable devices.
I am seeing both Home Inspectors as well as the Electrical Inspectors calling out the bonding jumpers around things like removable filters and other such items. The grounding electrode is no longer there as the nonmetallic pipe is not being used as a grounding electrode so there is no need to bond around these filters.
The requirement in 250.104(A)(1) does not have a requirement to bond around removable devices and the only requirement is for the point of bonding to be accessible. This means that the original conductor that was installed for the grounding electrode conductor will now sacrifice as the bonding conductor required by 250.104(A)(1).
We must remember that Part III section 250.50 through 250.70 addresses the Grounding Electrode and the Grounding Electrode Conductor including any bonding jumpers involved with the grounding electrode system while Part V sections 250.90 through 250.106 addresses Bonding requirements.
As you have pointed out these are two complete and different aspects of Article 250.
A very good point Paul as there needs to be a better understanding between the two. If I could I would give you another greenie for pointing this out and helping to better understand the difference between bonding and grounding.
I haven’t read the entire post but have this to ask, can the grounding rod be inside buried or driven into the ground and then the slab poured around it?
This was not grounded to the water line, well on the other side of the house.
House was built in the 70s and the ground wire appears to come into the house and is then attached to the rod. This was also in a finished basement with limited visibility.
Mike,
lol…but I am not talking about non-metalic pipe…I am simply talking about the image I posted…lol…if indeed the electrician runs the GEC to the water pipe electrode ( which has 10’ in the earth… and present ) then it needs to be used…termination of the GEC on the wrong side of the water meter is not going to comply with 250.68(B) without a bonding jumper…their is no way around that issue.
IN regards to the other items…not debating any of it…only my stance on the image I have posted…lol
Yes I agree with what you are saying about the slide by Mike Holt.
I remember when I first saw that slide I objected to the point of attachment of the Grounding Electrode Conductor but I was set straight at the IAEI meeting in Cocoa Florida.
It was there that I got a better understanding of the issues of metal water pipes by some of the members from Code Panel 5.
As someone said, “Stick with us and we will make you the other Mike” lol
Now let me see if I have got this right
Mike Holt the Guru’s Instructor
Paul Abernathy the Guru
Mike Whitt the Guru’s Guru
Now if that didn’t get some laughs I am going to quit my comedy act.
lol…we got ourself a STAGE act fella…now we just need to take it on the ROAD…lol
That makes sense, Mike. It certainly seems a lot easier to connect the grounding rod from the meter can than from the service panel.
In my area this is how everyone does the electrodes, the rod from the meter and everything else from the panel but, in some areas the meter is not allowed to be used at all which means that all the electrodes have to hit in the panel.
Frank,
Acceptable in either location…sad to say more and more POCO’s do not want the GEC to the GE within their enclosures even if the NEC® says it is fine. So they end up swaying the local AHJ into their compliance wishes and well then the waters get MUDDY…
But it is clear it can be connected to the GE at the meter, the service panel or even the mast head grounded conductor point as well…