Help needed in AZ

Thanks for the advice. Our attorney said the same thing. He said to submit all the complainst at once as to avoid any delays, etc. We do have major issues with unsightly finish on our walkway and our garage floor. There paint/drywall marking all over the floor. DR Horton’s response was to powerwash it once, which did nothing. - I’m about 99% certain they know we have major problems and they are just hoping we give up. We have neighbors who had less markings than we do and DR Horton did an epoxy coating on their floors to cover them up. I think they know that we get them out here we will press them on all the other more serious concrete issues, thus their strategy now is to avoid us and hope that we just give up. This will NOT happen! Luckily I work from home so I’ve extra time each and every day to devote to this cause. I just started a public picture page. There are a few pics of the unsightly finished garage floor. I’ve got 100’s more from around the house to download. Thanks Again for your great advice!

http://pictures.aol.com/galleries/pinnacleheadwear

Quick question for anyone that has delt with the AZ ROC:

Upon the representaives arrival to our home to view our problems, are we required to have every problem within view? This is mainly in regards to the upstairs sub floors that are off level. Will we need to have the carpet and padding pulled back for his visit?

Thanks

Mike… Based on my experience as an AZ contractor for 20 years and a HI for the past 6 years, I’m going to say YES…
From what I’ve seen most builders/ contractors do not want you to file a complaint, if the builder thinks he’s right he will try to prove that he is any way he can, if the item is not accessable I’m almost sure he will not do anything beyond the bare minimum, I do not believe removing floor coverings, furnature etc. would not be required of him.
As a HI I’ve been to 2 ROC visits with the customer, from what I’ve gathered it is in your best interest and responsibility to prove the builder wrong…
These guys are bound by state minimum requirements and I’ve never seen them have any tools or a ladder.

The last one I was on was the builder was disputing low insulation in the attic . The ROC inspector would only go on the service boards at attic access, on my ladder] he asked me to take photos of low areas that were several feet away from the walk boards and show him the photos before he decided that insulation was low and ordered the builder to install to additional insulation.

In addition to the on site visits, I’ve attended 2 local CE seminars with a rep from the ROC…
My interruption of his- the states position and his exact words stated reguarding looking at defects, if he has to walk over a dead body to see a complaint item he will not look at that dead body if it’s not on the complaint and would not address it unless the builder agreed to address it at time of the on-site inspection, other wise you would have to file another complaint…

One thing to keep in mind when your dealing with this… the builders/ contractors wrote and agreed on their own minimum workmanship requirements… the state enforces only whats on the books…

…but enough about AZ HI licensing…:wink:

Busshy… Yes the two are similar, I added that comment just for you.:wink: :wink:
Like a comment made to the Harvey guy from Mo.on the inspection news BB, with no state licensing or enforcement the consumer has nothing to protect them…

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LOL

This is off topic and will be my last post on this thread regarding this, but it is your AZ licensing law that actually puts the public at risk.

Without it, a shoddy inspector performing at the bare minimum of an acceptable standard could be sued and the consumer would be protected.

With it, a shoddy inspector is protected by his license and his performance in accordance with its very minimal standard, and a consumer has no recourse.

Just like your building issues pointed out here.

Licensing solves nothing. (End of discussion on this thread)

What R U Smokin James???

huh?

LOL…At least I got you guys to read my post!!

And yes, I’ve heard that we must show them every detailed complaint. They could walk past a wall falling down and if it’s not on the complaint they won’t even take a second look.

So, it sucks that I will need to hire a carpenter to pull back our carpet and padding, but I will do that if necessary.

As far as no tools or ladders? Wow, that’s hard to believe. Guess I had better have my level and tape measure ready as well. The more I read about the AZ ROC the more I think they will be of little or no help to us.

http://www.azroc.gov/Acrobat/Public/Workmanship_Standards_200408.pdf

Mike have you read this yet?

Brian,

      Oh yea, about a million times...In all of the complaints that we are submitting we reference each section that we feel a violation has occured. 
  • The one question I am still not able to get a clear answer to is in regards to our concrete/driveway/garage/walkway situation.

  • Our CSR put in writing during our 1-year walk-through that he would have a water test performed on our driveway. He never did that, but instead had the nerve to say that he stopped by one day after it had rained and admitted that there was standing water, but it was less than 3/16" in depth. Obviously, stopping by and looking the next day after it had rained is NOT a proper water test. The AZ ROC clearly states that the area needs to be flooded and then observed 30 minutes after for standing water.

Anyway, he then had the nerve to send us an official “Work order denial” letter based on him coming by a day after it rained. Mined you, this was not known to us so he did not have our permission to enter our property to submit his “visual” inspection.

The AZ ROC says that water should not stand. It also says that water on driveways should not exceed 3/16". I’ve measure as bet that I can and it’s always right around the mark or a bit less…In our case, it’s the area that is what is bothersome. The area where water stands is up to 10 ft in length an in some spots about 5 feet wide. Plus, whenever it rains for an extended length of time the water really raises high on the driveway which then forces water to enter the garage as you all can see by the pictures I posted.

So, I wonder what will happen if the AZ ROC rep floods our driveway and measures the depth at less than 3/16" what he would suggest be done, if anything. Water is,however, not supposed to stand or pond within the garage, so hopefully he will recognize that the reason water enters our garage is because there is no slope away from the garage foundation for the first 10 feet of our driveway.

On this note, the AZ ROC does state the following as a rule:

RULE 4-9-108 WORKMANSHIP STANDARDS
A. A contractor shall perform all work in a professional and workmanlike
manner.
B. A contractor shall perform all work in accordance with any applicable
building codes and professional industry standards.
C. All work performed by a contractor in a county, city, or town that has not
adopted building codes or where any adopted building codes do not contain
specific provisions applicable to that aspect of construction work shall be
performed in accordance with professional industry standards.

So, my question would be this…Wouldn’t the following rule in the IRC qualify as “professional industry standards?”

IRC in Chapter 4 under General R401.
" Surface drainage shall be diverted to a storm sewer conveyance or other approved point of collection so as to not create a hazard, Lots shall be graded so as to drain surface water away from the foundation walls. The grade away from foundation walls shall fall a minimum of 6 inches within 10 feet."

Last evening we had a “lovely” dust storm followed by rain here in AZ. This is what also bothers me about this…When the dust storms come and go there is always dust to be swept away from our walkways, driveways, etc. However, at our house anytime it rains afterwards we end up having a pile of dirt on our driveway that is in questions. For everyone else, the rains washes the dirt away…For us, the rain tunrs the dust into a thicker mud and given that the water on our driveway does not drain but rather is forced to evaporate, we are always left with thick dirt that has to be swept away. The outline of the dirt that is leftover shows perfectly the area that is not draining properly.

Mike… The general rule to determine the 3/ 16" … the thickness of a dime and a quarter… You will often hear the concrete guys call this the 35 cent test.
I have seen a couple svc reps accept the depth of a nickle.

If its real close, add some food coloring in the water when the ROC guy is there.

They may accept that… check on the inside of your electric panel…a lot of the homes in Maricopa have a sticker there stating that the grade was verified/ approved by ?? engineering co or some independent company, from what I understand a lot of the builders ins companys require this.

Mike… stick to your guns…
Hear’s a partial copy of an email I just received from a customer in the Villages Sub…
He’s been fighting the builder since last July or Aug…during the total time there were over 30 emails sent to the builder and myself…

Again thanks for the inspection itself, the definitive report, the supporting code materials, & the motivation you provided to another, otherwise, virtually defenseless homeowner.

Ok, it’s been a few weeks so I figured I would bug you guys with one more question…Again, we are trying to gather as much info as possible before submitting our complaints to the AZ ROC.

This question is in regards to oru finished garage floor, which I feel is where all the problems started in regards to our driveway drainage problem.

After speaking with a few neighbors and gaining access to their garages, I’ve noticed in all of them that their floor is about 2 1/2 to 3" higher compared to ours. (same builder and model)

This is not suprising considering there is about a 2 1/2" deviation between the opening of our garage and the adjacent walkway slab.

So, the AZ ROC lists the following as minimum workmanship standards within the concrete section:

9. PD Uneven or wavy floors.
AT Floors should not vary from flat more than 1/4" over a 10’ area provided the
deviation is gradual. Deviations, dips, or sags over short distances and
easily visible to the eye may be considered unacceptable.
CR Contractor should make necessary repairs.

10. PD Floors not level.
AT Floors should be level within 1/4" in any 12’ run.
CR Contractor should make necessary repairs.

Our garage floor is about 21 ft in length. The overall slope from the back of the garage to the opening is 3 1/2". In all other homes I measures, the slope was never more than an 1" for the entire length of the garage.

Also, there is a 2" drop over the final 12 ft to the opening of the garage. This is where I feel there was a major grading error which was compunded by the concrete sub who should have caught the error.

We FINALLY have a meeting sheduled w/ our builder’s area manager. This only after I wrote them every single day for the past 2 weeks after getting nowhere with our local warranty rep. He’s due out here next week to discuss our problems, which will likely just be more excuses from them.

Anyway, I just want to make sure I have all my bases covered before he gets here. Am I correct in challenging him on the slope of the garage floor? It’s pretty obvious that if the garage floor were 2 1/2" to 3" higher that they would be able to have correctly sloped the driveway away from our house.

I have no idea what his solution to this problem will be…The only way to correct the driveway slope and trip hazard would be to raise the garage floor. That would lead to other framing issues, not to mention we didn’t agree to buy a house with a PT slab only to have 3" of concrete poured on top of it.

Anyway, I’m just trying to brace myself for what their “solutions” might consist of.

Mike. at this point I would just see what they say. The important thing to remember… do not refuse any repairs as they can use that against you with the ROC, I would demand that all corrections that can affect the structure are done only to a lic. qualified and independent soils or structural engineers specifications…

Quick question:

I’m hoping someone out there has some experience with the AZ ROC in regards the industry standards they typically adhere to.

We finally had our builder’s local area manager out here this week. First of all, he offered to pay us to stay in a hotel for 3-4 days while they repair all the issues we have with the inside of the house.

However, we are still having problems deciding what to do with the driveway/walkway/garage issue. He did a water test and agreed we have a problem. He stared at it as the water ponded. He said he would consult with his best concrete guy to think of some “creative” solutions. To me this is pretty much saying we can’t really fix apart from major construction, so less throw some BS solutions at the homeowner and hope they bite. He did admit that according to the building plans the walkway/driveway should be level with each other and at this point short of tearing down half the house that can’t be done.

Anyway, he stopped by and had really just a few ideas…One would be to cut out the driveway portion where the slope is and fill it in with a planter of some type. The second option was to install some kind of drainage piping. I informed him that we would not accept this given there is no guarantee that it would never leak, which would cause the driveway to heave. Not to mention it’s something we’d have to disclose when we attempt to sell this house. He tried to tell me we wouldn’t have to disclose it if we didn’t want to…I couldn’t believe he said that. Real nice!! So we sell the house, it leaks, and we get sued. NICE! His final option was to dig up and repour the front slabs but put some kind of groove in it to divert water.

None of these options actually fixed the problem in my opinion to the standards by which we agreed to buy this house. None of these would be within the original design plan of the house.

We informed him that we had submitted ROC complaints against the builder and the subs involved earlier this week. He then tried at least three times to get us to withdraw the complaints.

Here is where I am looking for some information. When he was out here I mentioned the IRC 2003 401.3 rule which states that there should be a minimum 6" slope away from the foundation within the first 10 feet. He said that is way too much and they only have to slope to 1/8" per foot. Later after he gave us his options for repair I asked about this. He then said that we might as well cancel our ROC complaint because the ROC has no guidelines for drainage in regards to required slope and that we would lose.

I know within the ROC workmanship standards it does state that if there is no code listed that they will adhere to industry standards. ~ I was told by a local inspector that they would likely use the NAHB standards, which is a minimum slope of 1/4" per foot.

Does anyone know if this is correct? The builder’s rep is going to get back to us in a few days after he discussed our options with his superiors. When he again states that they are not required to slope the driveway I want to be able to respond with some numbers. Are they at least required to adhere to the NAHB standards? It seems insane that there would be no slope requirement at all and that the AZ ROC would totally ignore that complaint given we have a virtual zero slope for the first 10+ feet.

Anyway, sorry to be such a pain, but they keep throwing different numbers at us and based on the fact that they have lied to us in the past I just want to know what is truth and what is a lie in regards to what standards they are supposed to follow with this required slope issue.

Thanks!

Your best bet is to just ignore everything he’s saying to you because he’s just throwing a bunch of bull at you in the hopes you are going to panic and cave, and drop the complaints. This is obvious by how many times he keeps changing tactics. All you can do is not waste energy trying to find out which of his lies is truth, and wait and find out what the Builder’s Rep says when he gets back to you. There are slope requirements I’m sure. Anytime there is a negative grade, it’s going to flood the foundation and cause foundation, mold, insect, etc…and other issues. I can’t imagine there aren’t requirements. Besides, he already backtracked and sidestepped on that one. First he said there weren’t any, and now he said there was only a 1/8" per foot?

He’s just there to confuse you and hopefully talk you into caving and save them the court costs and not have to pay to fix your house and not have to pay you all the money that you undoubtedly will get for how badly they screwed up your house and your lives. Please, hang in there and keep up the good work okay?
smile

Oh, you’re very lucky Dan Harris hangs around here. I don’t think anyone else with NACHI knows as much about AZ laws as he seems to. You’re very fortunate. :slight_smile:

Mike… Check out/ google. Eckley & Associates.
He’s a bull dog :slight_smile: ] local attorney that has some good articles on dealing with the ROC and battling the builders…
It can be a long process with the ROC, appeals etc.
I can not disclose the info that I heard other than I do know he has taken a major builder to task on drainage issues with the ROC and won the first couple rounds.

[/quote]

I don’t know about lucky:)
I will admit I have had a couple experiences with the ROC in my past 25 yrs as an AZ Lic. contractor.:mad:

The truth is all of the info I know is available to ALL AZ inspectors, thur local CE presentations and by simply talking to local experienced guys/ gals at our local CE events…
BTW… I heard there are a couple great seminars comming up in the next couple months… Including a presentation/ mock trial against HIs by Mr Eckley and one of his guys that is also a lic AZ inspector… the same attorney that any AZ consumer can hire if an inspector screws up ] I’ve attended 4 or 5 seminars presented by him, and have never seen an inspector leave with the attitude of, I know it all, it’s always been, WOW, I need to get more CE, defiantly an eye opening seminar that all inspectors should be required to attend every year to be reminded of the liability we have, and responsibility we all have to our customers.

I agree, Wendy. I’m sure these guys trained to just this. But to think that we would accept their offers of a planter ( which doesn’t even address the standing water ) of a drain is just crazy. It was amazing how different his body language got when I requested all ideas be submitted to us in wrting so that we could pass them along to our respresentation.

To this point there ideas are nothing more than severe compromises on our behalf. I sat there and heard his expert concrete guy tell him that not one of their single creative ideas was to the original design plan of the house. It’s amazing how they attempt to make us look like the bad guys because we simply want the house built to the original design plan! That just amazes me. We are not asking for ANYTHING more than what we paid for yet they do all they can to make us feel guilty for doing just that!

Dan - We actually contacted Eckley and Associates a few months back. They are definitely an option if our builder replies back to us and says they can’t or refuse to repair the house to the original design plan. ~ At that point we would have to file an official dispute letter and enter the mediation, arbitration stages, etc. The horror stories I’ve heard about that are not good. But I guess that’s why it pays to have a good attorney by your side. Up until now we’ve been able to do this on our own, but by no means would we be foolish to enter that stage w/out pros by our side.

Anyway, I guess we’ll just wait now for their proposals for repair.

Dan - Any idea if I can quote the NAHB minimum of 1/4" per foot slope requirement? Again, for them to say that there is no slope requirement seems ridiculous…I’m thinking he just “wants” me to believe that so that we give up and go along with them.

Thanks

Mike, the contractor should not only be able to tell you what standard they used to make the driveway, but they should be able to produce the standard.

Furthermore as it seems to be getting to the push comes to shove stage it may be prudent to get the builders “suggested corrections” in writing.

Call the AZ ROC and ask them what standard should be used for grade.

There should be a grading plan somewhere
http://phoenix.gov/BUSINESS/gradingpln.html