IR: Giving it away for free... DUMB

I think in the emotion of the thread the original theme or statement has gotten lost or a least blurred. Kenton is talking about “giving away services”. The idea of doing the IR thermal imaging and the thread subject are not mutually exclusive but this concept of doing more for less has been an ongoing issue and continues to grow. I think in large part because of the low volume of business many are offering additional services for nothing or for a small additional fee in an effort to attract customers away from their competition. That is just marketing. This may be where someone not adequately trained may be in danger of poisoning the pool. Many people in the past have stated they would never use a CO detector because of the additional liabilities but have no problem with offering IR services (with or w/o proper training). The “line” for what a HI entails is being moved into uncharted territory. By offering the additional services as “ancillary services”, the line remains where it historically has been established. We all know Realtors who “puff” everything; the houses, the property, and now the Home Inspection and inspectors. These Realtors will emphatically state that this HI includes IR thermal imaging as a normal part of their home inspections. These are areas not specifically covered by SOP and in fact goes far beyond the SOP. The paradigm shift is not without some consequences. Offering IR isn’t the problem, making it part of the standard HI and for free is. This may well be the future of Home inspections but for now is not the norm. Something to think about. Why is it OK to do IR but not all the other high tech testing in what in the industry is known as a “technically exhaustive” inspection. This is where the training and credentials to back you up will either be your savior or your demise. This is not the first time this has been brought up on this BB.

How many offer Mold inspections as a normal part of the Home Inspection? Any of these ancillary inspections would preclude anyone from using the comment " a home inspection is a visual inspection only of the readily accessible…" in their PIA.

Sure, but when you are rich and famous I want a Porsche, wait, make that a Gulfstream IV.

Practice, practice, practice.

Mic

Only if those findings are based solely on the interpretation of the thermal image.

If the findings are substantiated by other means or instruments (further investigation, visual verification, destructive testing, moisture meters or other specialized equipment, etc.), there is little left to challenge.

When the TI is used to discover, rather than to analyze, it can be a huge asset to the home inspector, regardless of their training. It’s simply a matter of whether you’re offering a Thermal Imaging Inspection or a Home Inspection.

Many of us use “specialized instruments” to aid in our process of discovery. This (IMHO) **reduces **our liability rather than increasing it. You are much more likely to be sued for something you missed, rather than something you found.

Quite true. IR is not mystical any more than a 3 light outlet tester. Both have a function and limitiations on what they can tell you. Some of us are a bit paranoid on overselling the technology to the public. Its very very useful but it’s not magic. And believe it or not, on the front page of an infrared home inspection franchise outfit it still says that IR lets you SEE thru walls. :roll:

That is why I answered question number one, it’s a smoke detector.
The other bright object is a light fixture what was turned on for awhile.
Can you enlighten me as to what a visual photograph will provide in this case?
This is not a trick question. It is a smoke detector stuck on the ceiling, nothing more.

The point is, through training you can begin to assess what the issues are by viewing the scan. Without training, you will need another thousand dollars in test equipment to determine what’s happening. With training, you can tell by the pattern that it is air infiltration not heat transfer by conduction.

I apologized to Mario at the get-go.
However to read his statements (which I addressed) that would lead the reader (a potential purchaser of IR technology) that the camera is a do all , see all device that any idiot can operate. The camera makes everybody go “wow”. But the real “wow” comes when the inspector takes what he sees in the camera, properly investigate further and uncover what is going on.

If you do not wish to learn the technology, then I highly recommend that you do not consider the investment.

Absolutely, that’s the next step. However, it is not going to be 100% apparent in every case (there are many uses for the IR camera). And you cannot guarantee that 100% of the home inspectors will do that. Specifically the home inspectors that use this technology as a shortcut. I do not want to get into how everything should be conducted in each and every case. If a home inspector comes on this board and internationally announces that infrared training is not required for home inspection etc. then I can only assume that they will continue their shortcut approach throughout the process.

That is exactly the approach that every home inspector (school trained or not) should approach the technology. However, I have seen in too many cases that this verification is not conducted. I also see all too many times that the infrared scan can make one half of a degree Celsius look like a forest fire! You can see your footprints on the carpet when you’re wearing shoes! When does an anomaly become significant?

These are the things you acquire through formal education.

If you can shuck out $6,000 for a camera, why would anyone reject the training to use it optimally?

It’s rather interesting how an association that is based upon education, training and certification condone “trial and error” over the education approach.

Back to the original question: I did a poll here a while back and most said they did or would charge for it as a separate service. Others felt that they should include it in every inspection and raise their rate to account for it. Either way works. Not many admitted to being willing to give it away. But then not many admit to charging $150 for a 2000 sq ft house inspection either but there are those that do it.

Now that is DUMB.

If I want to see through walls I’ll buy a portable x-ray machine or at least some of those special “glasses”:roll:

Sufficient context.:slight_smile:

Not rejecting formal training just saying that hands on speaks very loudly. IMHO

I agree, but if you aren’t qualified to use the other diagnostic tools or permitted to do destructive/invasive investigations, then you have a problem being able to defend the findings based on IR technology. How many will just use the IR and forego using other techniques to verify the findings.

I guess its a two edge sword in that regard.

Hands on training is not verifiable from a courts perspective.
When I am called to be an expert witness the lawyers want to see a curriculum vitae. Education is verifiable, experience is not awarded a certificate or diploma.

You’re gonna put Flir, Fluke and all the rest of 'um out of business with a product like that. LOL:D

Mic

Well then, next time you build a house, tell the architect that you want him to build it rather than the GC. :wink: Education is theory, experience is real.

For the record, I believe one should be properly trained (educated) to provide TI inspections. I just don’t buy the concept that without training, the camera is worthless.

Yes you can’t have theory without experience, but you can’t rely on experience when you are in a court without having the theory part, or at least in my experience. (sorry play on words) :slight_smile:

Jeff Pope nailed it

Within 1 mile of where I’m sitting is an inspector who offers thermal imaging, but he doesn’t offer home inspections. Silly IMHO.

Everyone told me I had better take computer classes if I wanted to start a business.
Still haven’t.
Formal education is a good recomendation for any persuit,yet it amazes me how those who chose that path seem to feel it is the only way to go.
It is sometimes almost an arrogance that cries out you must do it my way ,as a justification to the fact they themselves found no other way.

Because NICK…if he did become a home inspector he would be exceeding the SOP to offer IR services…lol…

1.1. A Home inspection is a non-invasive visual examination of a residential dwelling, performed for a fee, which is designed to identify observed material defects within specific components of said dwelling. Components may include any combination of mechanical, structural, electrical, plumbing, or other essential systems or portions of the home, as identified and agreed to by the Client and Inspector, prior to the inspection process.
I. A home inspection is intended to assist in evaluation of the overall condition of the dwelling. The inspection is based on observation of the visible and apparent condition of the structure and its components on the date of the inspection and not the prediction of future conditions.

So are we prepared to say untrained IR specialists can translate the nice and pretty blues, reds and so on into what we constitute a " visual examination"…again without proper training. Seems like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me if you dont understand what you are seeing properly.

But thats just my observation…I would perfer to have some who knows what they are REALLY doing show me versus taking a class online about it with some pictures…but then again it is only my opinion for what it is worth.

Maybe he is making more money doing IR inspections. To each his own.

Let me share a personal experience which relates to the issues of potential liability using IR technology.

I purchased an infrared camera and enrolled in the ITC building science course which was to be given about 45 days after my purchase arrived.
I began using my camera on my own home and discreetly used the camera during my home inspections. I found several anomalies that led me to investigate situations further. On one occasion (which I posted on this bulletin board) I entered an attic which would be otherwise not accessible under the standards of practice of home inspection. At this point, I began exceeding the standards of practice in going beyond the “visual inspection”. I discovered a significant structural defect as well as other HVAC mechanical issues which would otherwise gone undetected. So in this case, my liability had substantially increased. However, significant deficiencies which I found overshadowed my increased liability.

On another occasion, two days before attending the building science course I was inspecting a home that had stucco siding on the front and masonite siding on the other three sides. The siding had been inspected by an independent siding inspector and was given a clean bill of health. The real estate agent about shoved the siding inspection report down my throat when I told him that I would make my own assessment. Upon visual observation I saw overflowing gutter issues, gutters and were embedded in the stucco siding at the chimney, cracks in the stucco siding, blistering paint in deteriorated masonite siding, rusted nails, rust stains under the electrical service panel, rust stains at the screed flashing and substantial cracking around window and door framing/drama which have been patched with caulking recently but the cracking had recurred. It had not rained in months prior to the inspection. Further investigation with my moisture meter indicated very slight elevated moisture readings. I discreetly took out my infrared camera again and conducted a scan of all four sides of the house under adverse conditions. A substantial amount of anomalies were observed related and unrelated to moisture intrusion. Though elevated moisture conditions were not present at the time of inspection, deterioration of the building materials changed the density, thus the thermal capacity which can be detected by the IR camera. This is where an electronic moisture meter may not back up your IR evaluation. On the interior of the house I saw numerous anomalies in the ceilings and walls. Again, the attic was not accessible within the scope of practice of home inspection. I exceeded the scope of inspection by entering the attic where I found the source of apparent moisture intrusion at the ceiling. It turned out to be an insulated refrigeration line within the interior walls. The client arrived at the home. I had spent several hours just on the exterior of the home and was far from complete. I took the client aside and asked them what they expected from the home has the siding damage was quite extensive. Where they intending to make any repairs, remodeling etc… They indicated that they wanted a house in move-in condition where no maintenance or repairs would be required. I walked the client through the house showing them the issues that concern me at that point and allow them to view the anomalies through the infrared camera. They made a decision at that point that they would not buy this house and requested me to terminate the inspection. The client-based their failure to purchase the house on deterioration of the siding and potential latent damage to the framing of the house.

With their independent siding inspector report in hand, the seller attempted to file a suit against me while I was attending the building science course. A demand for all of my inspection notes, inspection report and photographs was made by the sellers attorney. I had made no mention of the infrared technology utilized to this point which was the basis for my client to decide not to purchase the property. During the building science course I asked ITC Instructor Scott Wood to look over the thermal scans I had taken during my inspection. I did not want to misinterpret or miss identifying anything as this was likely going to court. On the last day of class Scott spent his lunch time going over my inspection with me. He stated that my interpretation, which was derived from the training I had just received during the course was a good use of infrared technology in home inspection. Upon receiving my certification, I submitted the infrared scans and an infrared report refuting the bogus siding inspector report of the seller. Complaint dismissed!

I certainly would not have wanted to go to court and explain my unprofessional version of how infrared scans induced my client to not purchase the property.
Thanks to an exceptional course by ITC, IR certification and personal verification of my findings by Scott Wood, I was not left to go it alone. Regardless of the facts that I visually observed the deficiencies and verified my observations with electronic moisture detection equipment, I was on my way to court!
I think the $2000 I spent in training expenses to be certified (not to mention the combined cost with the IR camera) was far less than my potential court costs just to answer this frivolous complaint.
The “wow” affect of the infrared report, backed by ITC training/certification completely shut this complaint down.

I think there is a big difference in a home inspection using IR technology compared to a building science thermologist. There are standards of practice, standard operating procedures, scope of inspection pertaining to home inspections. As a building science thermologist, you can separate one from the other. Most state laws say that home inspectors came exceed the standards of practice if they are qualified and licensed as required. You can go outside of the scope of inspection as a building science thermologist without jeopardizing your entire HI SOP by subscribing to the standards expected of a building science thermologist. When you’re infrared camera comes out of its case, you should no longer be performing the task of a simple home inspector.

Can a home inspector get around some of this stuff? Sure.
But like in these two instances when you’re infrared camera entices you to go beyond your SOP by going into the attic where no inspector has been expected to go before we’re is is taking us?

Not only would my use of IR be scrutinized, all of the things that I did that exceeded normal home inspections would have likely been questioned.

Can you be an expert witness without a diploma or certification? Sure.
But it’s difficult to refute an internationally recognized organization/certification like ITC. Going the extra mile seems to be better than relying on Las Vegas odds!

I will reiterate that field experience is more important than attending a class. You can’t learn everything in the classroom. But this does not forgo the need for formal training in an area where there is no point of reference to formulate on-the-job training.

David

Interesting story. It leads me to ask the following based on your post.

Upon your client terminating the inspection, did you provide them with a partial report?

Given that your IR scan was beyond inspection SOP’s I don’t understand how you would feel challenged legally on why they decided to walk considering your expertise in IR and home inspection would likely stand the test of negligent misrepresentation on your part.

Thanks,