Main breaker outside and inside at service panel and meter?

Hey Greg, I call them out even if they are inside a wall because of sparks escaping or if there is a panel fire there is now an unsealed area that may allow the fire to spread. When they are mounted on a basement wall its even more dangerous like you said a child with a screwdriver can get killed. But it is in the NEC to have them all plugged if not in use.

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Tom - the State of Ohio says that it is ok.

‘IF’ conductors do loosen up, do you recommend that all the terminals and breakers be checked after XX # of years?

I know that it is a code violation and I knew that in 1998.

I would worry more about all the connections in the panel not being properly torqued than I would be about any “double taps”!

I own and use a torque screw driver do you?

I honestly don’t know what this guy is qualified for, but it sure as hell ain’t home inspections.

Nobody said a word about safety hazards until Don Quixote came blundering in here with his B.S.

A lot more than you Chuck!

Who mentioned safety hazard before you blundered in here?

In which states is it OK for an inspector to ignore a double lugged grounded conductor?

You lost this debate at the start. At this point you have no credibility on the topic. It’s been demonstrated in the code. It’s been demonstrated in examples. It’s been demonstrated in manufacturer documentation. It’s been demonstrated in at least on state mandated SOP. You even cited one reason yourself.

I really don’t care if you ever understand this. You’re ignorance is not my responsibility, but I do want other, inexperienced inspectors to know not to follow your advice.

Do you think you have convinced a single person reading this thread to follow you?

Mr Michael, I will finish with this… to make certain I was not misrepresenting something I called the Ohio state licensing dept. They have confirmed that as of right now, until the board finalizes its own SOP, the grandfathered home inspectors are in fact allowed to follow the same SOP they have been following previously such as that of NACHI or ASHI, etc… Both standards allow inspection of electrical system. Neither one instructs HI to perform a code compliance inspection which you keep quoting from the state’s laws. The two are not the same. I can explain it but I cannot understand it for you. Once Ohio puts out its own SOP you will see that it, too, will allow home inspectors to perform electrical inspection as part of a home inspection.

Regarding the defect, all the info is in this thread. Best of luck to you :slight_smile:

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I’m going to take the risk of being pedantic so as to be sure that everyone is aware of the main reason that the US National Electric Code requires that all openings in electrical enclosures be closed is that it supports the original reason that we use enclosure cabinets at all. Concerns about electric shock hazards came later. The enclosure’s job is to confine sparks, molten metal, and burning bits of insulation or cable jacket to the inside of the enclosure and thus reduce the likelihood of an electrical failure being selected on the fire report as the “Source of Heat of Ignition.” Any opening in the enclosure is a means of escape for those ignition source discharges from an electrical failure.


Tom Horne

Michael

You write that " the State of Ohio says that it is ok." Would you please tell me which “that” you are referring to?

I’m an Electrician, albeit a retired electrician. I don’t recommend anything because that is not and was not my role. When I did preventative maintenance I used temperature measurement of connections to discover any high impedance connections. Way back in my early days in the craft the only tool I was aware of for doing that was infrared photography. In the decade just prior to me retirement many tools became available at a price an individual electrical contractor could afford that made temperature measurement quick and simple. When examination of connections showed that one or more were loose we would disconnect the loose conductors, remove any copper of aluminum oxide from both the conductor and the terminal, apply an anti-oxidation paste appropriate to both the conductor and terminal material, and reconnect the conductor using a torque limiting tool. Some clients had all of the connections redone. Some wanted the connections “re-torqued” and as an employee I did what the contractor instructed me to do but as a contractor I would decline to use a torque limiting tool on a connection which was already made. I’m not an engineer so I won’t try to say that it should never be done. My problem is that the people I talked to; such as tool manufacturers representatives, electrical instructors, and even a few engineers did not offer consistent answers on the effect of applying torque limiting tools to existing connections. One Manufacturer’s engineering staff stated categorically that their tool should not be used to do that because repeated application of their tool to an existing connection could result in over tightening.

I did own and use a torque limiting screw driver and a torque limiting wrench because I had to deal with some connections which were larger than the torque screwdriver is appropriate for. I passed those tools back to youngsters just starting out in the electrical craft and as I continue to unearth more such tools I will do the same with them.


Tom Horne

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Electricians and their commercial clients used to hire me to tell them which connections needed inspection, cleaning and retorquing.

Chuck

You do realize that if you are more than 50 miles from home and holding a clip board that it makes you a consultant. I worked with a lot of consultants over my 45+ years in the craft. I just did what they instructed us to do; through our foreman; and didn’t say word 1 to them of any kind. Most were just regular folk with a job to do. Most of them treated us as skilled craftspeople and a few even thanked us for our work. A very few were arrogant ******** who made me very glad to have the protection of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) work rule which requires that no one, other that another IBEW Member who is receiving foreman scale, may direct the work of an IBEW wireman except through their foreman. You could be the electrical engineer who drew the prints and I was obliged to tell you that I was forbidden to take direction from anyone except through my foreman. That simple rule kept us from getting blamed by anyone for bad work if we installed the system as per the prints, specifications, and written change orders. I always laughed when I read the boiler plate language requiring that the installation must comply with all applicable building construction standards comfortable in the knowledge that was out of my pay grade. The only thing that really bothered me about that was having to build something that I knew was wrong so that it could fail inspection and the contractor would get paid to do it again in a code compliant manner. What I had to learn to live with is that making such changes without a change order would make the contractor vulnerable to back charges for anything else that was non-compliant that we didn’t catch.

On the other hand if the overhead type treated our coworkers decently with a modicum of respect most foremen would not mind your asking a consultant, engineer, architect, or whoever if they would be willing to help you understand something in the prints… The change orders received before the work was done were not as lucrative for the contractor but they were a lot more satisfying for everyone actually doing the work.


Tom Horne

I’m not going to make any comments for the idiot anymore. This thread is dead for me. And that Yankee in Ohio. He’s just trolling us. Thinking he’s probably going to write a blog or a book.
I totally despise ignorance in my life. Stupid is one thing. But ignorant is to the Bone.

Any inspector that has had a few years under his belt know that is incorrect
And what peeves me off the most. That some new inspector may listen to that fool. That bothers me…
He has heard from some of the best electrical contractors and electrical inspectors across the United States of America. Right here on this board. But he fails to take the advice.
There is no hope for someone like that.

I’m really thinking about flagging all of his post from now on.

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Where is Paul Abernathy when you need him.
If you got a pipeline to Paul. Tell him to comment on this thread.

Paul already explained it, too:

Paul is a NEC genius!

You just don’t know what he does…

Did you watch what I posted? The video is supportive of your post, try it. YEP!

I really did! Do you know Paul ?
If so tell him Roy said hello.

The best electrical nerd! Respectfully noted.
He is easily insulated…
I truly wish he would make his presents known here like he used to do.
A total wealth of knowledge…Yep!

Yep!..

No unions where I was working. It was always a symbiotic and collaborative effort when working with independent electrical contractors. Sometimes I brought them into my jobs, other times, they brought me into theirs. We each had our areas of expertise and respected what the other brought to the collaboration.

Sometimes in-house maintenance people were a different story, but generally they were really good to work with too.

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NEC Nerd.

If there’s something he doesn’t know on the topic, I’d never be able to tell.