Methamphetamines

http://www.nachi.org/snds2006.htm

Hello Mr. Gromicko:

Thanks for the information. As the primary author of the country’s most comprehensive regulatory meth-lab assessment protocol, let me wade in here for a moment.

For a start, all of the talk about data quality objectives (DQOs) that I have posted concerning sampling for moulds applies to sampling for meth – without DQOs, a person collecting samples doesn’t have results, they have numbers on a lab report that may very well be the rope that is used to hang them in court. (Those NACHI members who attended my lecture on moulds and mould sampling have pretty good idea of what can happen to data collected without DQOs).

The “kits” provided are merely swabs, and can easily be substituted with regular old Johnson & Johnson gauze that has been wetted with regular old rubbing alcohol.

Sampling theory is sampling theory regardless of whether one is sampling for mould or meth or PCBs or lead, or whatever. A monkey can collect the sample and submit it to a lab, but can a monkey stand in court and explain why **all **negative values are inconclusive and some positive values aren’t? Is the person who collects the sample willing to take on ALL the liability of declaring a property free of meth contamination based on a little kit with a possible false negative result with no DQOs or knowledge of how meth is made, where the contamination is found and why? Can the person who used one of these “kits” explain the probability of a false positive or the probability of a false negative (which will be an absolute necessity if the results go to court and the person who collected the sample faces a Daubert or Frye challenge).

Are they willing to explain why they broke the law in several states by the unauthorized collection of the sample in the first place?

For your members who want to better understand sampling theory, data quality objectives and what they will face if they decide to start collecting samples for meth in residential properties, and those results are challenged in court, they may find the following regulatory documents of interest:

State of Colorado Support For Selection Of A Cleanup Level For Methamphetamine At Clandestine Drug Laboratories:
http://www.cdphe.state.co.us/hm/methlabcleanuplevelsupport.pdf

Colorado Department Of Public Health And Environment Regulation 6 CCR 1014-3 State Board Of Health Regulations Pertaining to the Cleanup of Methamphetamine Laboratories (This regulation can be downloaded directly form my meth-lab website at
http://www.forensic-applications/meth/coloregs.html … See Appendix A and Attachment to Appendix A of those regulations for my discussions on sampling)

In these documents, I lay out standard, basic, simple ground-floor sampling theory and the reader can get a better idea of the risk assessment information they will need to defend their liability when they collect those meth samples. Feel free to ask questions afterwards.

I don’t inspect homes because I’m not competant to do that. Rather, I’m a scientist who collects samples for stuff and helps attorneys defeat those who shouldn’t.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Oh … by the way… I must point out that my comments have nothing to do with the named company – for all I know, they are absolutely the greatest company in the world producing only the highest quality analytical results. I have never heard of them.

However, the validity of a “test” lies exclusively with the person who has collected the sample(s) not with the lab who has merely analyzed the sample and produced a number – after all, ultimately, in court, it will be the responsibility of the person who has collected the sample to verify that the number produced by the lab was correct – if the lab made a mistake, it is the responsibility of the person who collected the sample to catch the error.

And as a lab rat myself who worked in commercial and research labs (including US EPA forensic CLP SAS/RAS labs) and analyzed such samples for ten years, I know first hand how error prone labs really are.

That is what QA/QC and DQOs are all about!

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

[FONT=Arial](The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG
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Caoimhin,

Not that I would even consider such an adventure, just out of curiosity reading all your very informative posts, what chemicals could be confused with or challenged in court as known chemicals found at a lab site which maybe indicative of common household residual matter which may not even remotely be related to the manufacture of meth.

I could not imagine anyone in the home inspection business trying to advance their careers with such technical opinionated findings which should only be left to a Hygienist. I also feel the same way about mold.

Mr. Duffy –

A great question! In fact, when I am wearing my other hat as a law enforcement officer, one of the main arguments given to me when investigating meth labs from a criminal perspective is that the individual wasn’t making meth, shucks, they just had normal every day household products (chemicals) that could be used to make meth. And they are correct – with two of the most common methods of meth production, the tweekers use everyday household chemicals. (Of course trying to explain the bombs and booby traps also found in the meth lab is a bit trickier…) :shock:

I am one of HIDTA’s certified meth-lab instructors. In one of my lectures, I have a photograph that I took at my local Safeway supermarket. I stood in one isle, and in one photograph I took a picture of EVERYTHING one needs to make meth except one item (which was found two isles over).

Therefore, in two of the more common methods of meth production, very common household chemicals are used to make meth, and ANY of them could easily show up in a “meth test” – except two. It is those two that I would look for IF the method of production was one of the two more common methods. (If on the other hand, there was evidence of some of the other less common methods, I would look for other specific compounds that are not commonly found in any normal home, and too would be fairly conclusive of meth production).

Excellent question.

Cheers,
Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

Fast Facts

Common Meth Ingredients

Signs, Symptoms and Effects of Meth Use

Treatment and Recovery

Dealing with a “Tweaker”](http://www.mappsd.org/dealing_with_a_tweaker.htm)

Clues to Meth Labs

**Take Action**◙Alcohol - Gasoline additives
or Rubbing Alcohol
◙Ether (starting fluid)
◙Benzene
◙Paint thinner
◙Freon
◙Acetone
◙Chloroform
◙Camp stove fuel
◙Anhydrous ammonia
◙White gasoline
◙Pheynl-2-Propane
◙Phenylacetone
◙Phenylpropanolamine
◙Rock, table or Epsom salt◙Iodine crystals
◙Red Phosphorous
◙Toluene (found in brake cleaner)
◙Red Devil Lye
◙Drain cleaner
◙Muraitic acid
◙Battery acid
◙Lithium from batteries
◙Sodium metal
◙Ephedrine
◙Cold tablets
◙Diet aids
◙Iodine
◙Bronchodialators
◙Energy boosters

Brian,

Are you conducting in-house lab remediation?..

Hello Mr. Kelly:

Thanks for the links; the information provided was mostly appropriate, but for obvious reasons, incomplete (and sometimes incorrect).

Public Safety walks a fine line in public education – on the one hand trying to provide enough information to permit people to protect themselves and recognize the problem, but without providing too much information thus permitting the casual recipient to take that information and hone their skills in production or give away our detection methods.

It irks me when I see TV “news” stories describing how to make meth, but pleases me when the TV guys (as usual) put out a lot of info that is just flat plain WRONG. :smiley: And that’s good, since about 80% of what tweekers know about making meth is incorrect. The more misinformation they have and the more they do wrong, the better it is for me as a cop and as a consulting Industrial Hygienist.

As a side note – I have several presentations on the meth crisis which I give to various professional organizations and Law Enforcement/EMS pesonnel, and I would be happy to give those presentations, free of charge to NACHI at some of its meetings, if requested. The presentation geared to Home Inspectors/Realtors (which I have been giving for about four years) lasts about two hours. The presentation focuses on how to recognize when one is in a potential meth lab, the indicators, understanding the hazards of just standing there (bombs, booby traps, chemical exposures, indicators of a violent tweeker at the home, etc.) Part of the presentation, when given in Colorado usually includes a mockup of a methlab and a hands-on display. Just let me know.

Cheers,

Caoimhín P. Connell
Forensic Industrial Hygienist

www.forensic-applications.com

(The opinions expressed here are exclusively my personal opinions and do not necessarily reflect my professional opinion, opinion of my employer, agency, peers, or professional affiliates. The above post is for information only and does not reflect professional advice and is not intended to supercede the professional advice of others.)

AMDG

No:D :smiley: :smiley:

But meth is very easy to make, that is why they put the cold tablets behind the counter here now.

It’s crazy out there, I feel for law enforcement community…dealing with these whacked out individuals.

But I have dealt with some whacked-out-nit-wits just inspecting a normal building…for abnormal people…I’m sure you have also…

I was certified by Denver’s North Metro Drug Task Force as a first responder. This was in addition to my fire service Haz-Mat training. Knowing what I do about meth houses: A: I want to spend the least amount of time in a home that was one. B:You better have the correct personal protective equipment on if you encounter one AND C: if you do testing you better have E&O insurance that covers you.

The by-product chemicals are neuro-toxins and if you pronounce the house clean and its not, the potential liability is huge. The neuro-toxins are bad for everyone particuliarly kids.

//Rick