Yes, I know Joe, I am just trying to make a point. My previous post shows a manufacturer that says that their breakers will work in several different brands of panels.
Some of this stuff is just not that black and white.
Sean,
I’m sure you do an outstanding inspection, but I have to disagree with you. In this case there are way too many designs and manufactures. I can’t know everything and I’m not going to be the cause of a fire.
If the panel says use Square D breakers only, then that’s what I’m going to go by. I don’t think that makes me or anyone else look like a dumb *****.
Chris, I am not saying anyone particular is a dumb azz, I am bluntly making a point.
We immediately follow the tag on the panel, but some panels don’t have tags because of age. Some panels are no longer made and you must substitute something else. Other breakers contradict what the panel itself says.
The focus was on the wrong breaker installed, instead of why the labels says “specific breaker only”. IF the panel in the original post was full of Connecticut made and approved breakers, would it be improper?
Here’s one example. If this breaker was installed in a seimens or GE panel, and you wrote it up would be be right or wrong? The panel says no but the manufacturer of the breaker says yes.
Here’s a discussion about it
We can rule out square D. I emailed them and here is a direct response.
So for any square D the installation is wrong.
I may take the time to combine all major panel makers and make a user list of compliant use breaker interchange. As far as square D is concerned, them and only their stuff.
Good morning Sean, hope the day is going good?
Here are responses to your questions;
1.Does your company manufacture residential circuit breakers that are UL listed or compatible with another manufacturers panel? = Square D does not make branch breakers for other manufactures load centers and we do not recommend that other manufacturers breakers be used in Square D load centers, because we do not UL test or list them.
-
Do your brand panels willing accept any other type or brand of manufacture made breaker? = It is possible that Square D load centers(specifically the Homeline type) will accept some other manufacturers breakers, but again we do not recommend their use.
-
Has your company acquired or purchased another company, where the panel itself is no longer made with that name, but you make breakers that will properly fit and work in that panel? (FPE would be an example) = Square D has always been Square D and we make our own residential load centers and branch breakers.
Lastly, does your company manufacture any other brand name of panel that will interchange with the other brand? = Square D makes QO and Homeline type residential load centers and the QO should only use QO branch breakers and the Homeline should only use Homeline branch breakers.
Hope this helps, any ?'s let us know.
Thank you,
Glen
Who cares what the manufacturer of the breaker says. The UL rating / listing is for the panel as supplied by the manufacturer of the panel for testing. If the manufacturer of the panel has the panel relisted / rated for other brand breakers, it will be noted on their label. Off brand breakers should be called out. Let the electrician take any and all responsibility or liability.
A response from Seimens:
1.Does your company manufacture residential circuit breakers that are UL listed or compatible with another manufacturers panel? We do manufacture a line of breakers that will fit in a group of Square D panels. Please see the list of panels in our Speedfax Catalog on page 1-37.
- Do your brand panels willing accept any other type or brand of manufacture made breaker? No, you can only put Siemens in Siemens and Murray in Murray even though we manufacture both brands. See the Product Liability Statement below.
Product Liability & Metering Approvals
Siemens (ITE) load centers are only UL listed to accept Siemens branded circuit breakers. The use of any other name brand, including Murray, would void our warranty and the UL Listing
- Has your company acquired or purchased another company, where the panel itself is no longer made with that name, but you make breakers that will properly fit and work in that panel? (FPE would be an example) Yes, there are several. Please see the list and progression of acquisition for these companies.
Siemens purchased ITE which previously had purchased Gould. Siemens breakers should fit these panels.
Murray was bought by Siemens but is still manufactured under the Murray brand. Prior to Siemens acquisition, Murray bought Crouse Hinds which had previously bought Arrow Hart. The Murray breakers can be used in both the Crouse Hinds and Arrow Hart panels.
Lastly, does your company manufacture any other brand name of panel that will interchange with the other brand?
No we do not. This is per UL stating that it is not allowed.
According to the folks at Siemens, the UL rating is what determines what can be used, and if its UL approved for another panel then its acceptable.
This UL Classification allows a Siemens Type QD
circuit breaker to be used in place of a
Square D Type QO circuit breaker in
those load centers that are specifically
shown on the Panelboard Compatibility
list.
ListedPanelboards—SquareD—CatalogNumbers
QO2L30F/S
QO2-4L70F/S
QO2-4L70TS
QO2-4L70RB
QO6-12L100F/S
QO6-12L100DF/S
QO6-12L100TF/S
QO6-12L100DTF/S
QO6-12L100RB
QO8-16L100F/S
QO8-16L100DF/S
QO8-16L100TF/S
QO-16L100DTF/S
QO8-16L100RB
QO112M100/RB
QO116M100/RB
QO120M100/RB
QO124M100
QO12L100DF/S
QO12L100RB
QO12-20M100/RB
QO12-20M100TF/S
QO12M100/RB
QO16-20M100/RB
QO16M100/RB
QO20M100/RB
QO112L125G/RB
QO112-24L125/RB
QO112-24L125GWGC
QO116L125G
QO116-24L125G/RB
QO12-24L125/RB
QO120-24L125G
QO120-24L125GWGC
QO120L125G
QO124L125G/RB
QO124M125/RB
QO16L125/RB
QO16-12M125FTRB
QO16-24L125/RB
QO20L125/RB
QO20-24L125/RB
QO24L125/RB
QO120-30L150G
QO120-30M150/RB
QO124L150G
QO124M150
QO130L150G/RB
QO130M150/RB
QO16L150/RB
QO16M150/RB
QO16-30L150/RB
QO18-16M150FTRB
QO20-30M150/RB
QO20-30M150TF/S
QO20-30L150
QO24L150/RB
QO24M150/RB
QO30L150/RB
QO30M150/RB
QO8-16M200FT/RB
QO112L200G/RB
QO120-40M200/RB
QO120-40M200TC
QO124M200
QO130L200G/RB
QO130-40M200
QO130200/RB
QO130-40L200G/RB
QO140M200/RB
QO16L200/RB
QO16M200/RB
QO18-16M200FTRB
QO20-40L200/RB
QO20-40M200TF/S
QO20-40M200/RB
QO24L200/RB
QO24M200/RB
QO30L200/RB
QO30M200/RB
QO30-40L200/RB
QO30-40M200/RB
QO40M200/RB
QO140M225
QO142L225G/RB
Here is where I must be failing as a resource. With one call to me (free by the way) I could have answered this question before it got past the second post. I am more than happy to explain this to anyone who would like in-depth details.
Remember when dealing with Electrical Manufacturer products you guys have something rare…a resource that holds you all dear to heart…I’m a NACHI guy front to back…and am always here for you. I am your direct link for Electrical Manufacturer questions…and my phone will always welcome your calls.
The Manufacturers want to know your questions, concerns, ideas, and experiences as do I. I am no GURU but I am here to help you.
Well Paul then answer the question!
Are UL classified breakers an acceptable replacement for different panels? My last post would be a good example.
Is it similar to going to auto zone and buying an aftermarket water pump. We know its not made by the manufacturer but it will work.
P.S. your still the guru in my book.
A “Classified Breaker” will state what panels it is for use in.
Sean,
Thanks for the kind words.
The reason I request a call on this topic is because of the obvious issue of being different for each manufacturer. Anything I would post on here (open forum) would clearly be me running the risk of singling out one manufacturer from another. This I will not do on an open forum and is why I do not post much on here these days and obviously why I have a disclaimer on each post.
However, I can explain the Magnusson/Moss Act and how it pertains to replacement circuit breakers. There is a big difference in new installations versus replacement installations when it comes to circuit breakers and UL Classified Circuit Breakers. I hope you understand that I am not as FREE and OPEN to post online as I used to be but I have posted my number in the MEMBERS ONLY area for just this example.
You have to understand that their is no universal response from a collective group of manufacturers on this issue. Each manufacturer will have their own position when dealing with their equipment. However, I can tell you how each of these manufacturers address this topic on a phone conversation as that is what I do as a NEMA Representative.
In terms of new installations we have a far more simple answer. The Manufacturer lists the types of devices for use on each panelboard. You are to use only the circuit breakers listed on the manufacturers label and that’s the end of that. When it comes to UL Classified Circuit Breakers I encourage you to Google the "Magnusson/Moss Act for the reason why many believe that replacements are viewed differently than new installations. Keep in mind that all manufacturers may or may not agree with the Magnusson/Moss Act so I am not putting words in any manufacturers mouth so to speak.
Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnuson%E2%80%93Moss_Warranty_Act
If the link does not work just do to Wikipedia and type in Magnuson Moss Warranty Act and look close at the “Requirements” part of the act.
Now understand that manufacturers themselves do not test other manufacturers products (even if they technically fit) in their products and why would they since they rightfully wish to have their own products used in their panels. However, the concept of the UL Classified Circuit Breaker was to have a company who makes these devices test them on all respective panelboards they are intended to be used as replacements on and all under the watchful eye of the UL Investigative process.
So…that’s about all I can say on that and hope it helps you understand why you see the UL Classified Circuit Breakers being sold.