Here’s the label on the inside of my condo panelboard cabinet cover!](http://www.joetedesco.org/JOE_TEDESCO_PANEL_1980.pdf)
The building was first occupied in 1981.
See the “Neutral Bar Wire Size”
Help me out Joe
Where does it say one wire per terminal?
I see that the ground bar will accept two or three #14 through #10 copper but I don’t see where it says only one grounded wire per terminal, do you?
As a matter of fact the only information on the neutral is the tightening torque.
If this is a main panel as you say it is then 250.24 is going to require that the equipment grounding conductors, the grounding electrode conductor, the panel enclosure and the grounded (neutral) all be bonded togeather therefore there is no such thing as the equipment grounding terminal in this main panel. This must mean that any and all conductors connected to any and all terminal bars in this enclosure would carry the same weight.
Again I ask for some concrete danger in the installation of two neutrals under one screw except to the removal on one of the conductors while the other is energized.
This is not the main it is a panel in my unit that is supplied by a Subfeeder OC device. The word Wire is singular!
All right guys.
Since you both are licensed electricains answer me this:
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If this has been a requirement since UL 67 came out, why haven’t those who teach electricians been able to communicate this fact to all interesed parties?
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I see a EGC and grounded conductor from the same circuit under a single screw very often. Why do so many licensed electricians do this? And what is the hazard associated with this?
Look at the attachment here for many of the same questions, with many of the same answers by others, I like Roy’s the best!
Joe,
I know what the code says and I even participated in many of those threads.
My take away is that many old dog electricians(a some newer ones too I assume) refuse to change their methods until the AHJ call on it.
The 2002 NEC certainly clairified it for the AHJs but that still doesn’t excuse the somewhat common practice of having a EGC and grounded conductor under the same screw.
I am surprised the that NFPA took so long to make the changes.
I asked the questions because this practice puts the HI in the position of calling it out as a problem and then having the electrician and or AHJ say it’s not a real problem.
Very true, and this problem will never go away, the proposer was calling attention to a subject that was in the standards long before some of the installers were even born! I have had many discussions with some of the “old timers” who never had the options we have today with the vast amount of information available on the internet. Many of the issues we argue about here are so old they can vote. I guess we must take a firm position, and as far as I am concerned the issue is real and the subject is one that will put the person in front of a Judge and Jury in the minority.
I will stand behind any Home Inspector here who confronts someone who says it is OK and does not know of the hazards involved.
You should always identify all the defects you find!
Well said Joe T. Thank you.
Yes it is singular in the grounding terminal but goes on to say that two or three can be installed.
Got to do better than that Joe.
Yes you are correct – for the “Equipment Grounding Conductor” – aren’t we discussing the “Grounded (Neutral)” conductor? 
The simple answer to this question is because of the verbiage in the NEC.
The only thing that could be enforced with any UL document was if it was included with the equipment as part of the labeling of the equipment. Joe has posted the panel in his house and it does not have any language that would lead anyone to accept that they couldn’t be doubled up or even three under one screw.
For Standard 67 to be enforceable it would had to have been induced into the code or written on the label that was installed in the panel. There is no way that a UL standard can be enforced unless the jurisdiction adopts that standard into law just the same as the NEC is adopted.
In areas of the country where the NEC is not adopted then the UL Standard 67 would only be good to use in the out house.
There is no way to mandate that any panel with double neutrals be changed that was installed before 2002. It would be like saying that a house built in 1935 must have outside receptacles. Just ain’t gonna happen.
The only danger in having two or more neutrals under one screw or a neutral and an equipment grounding conductor under one screw can be found in this statement from the IAEI.
Read the last couple of sentences of this paragraph for a better understanding or why Standard 67 was written and inducted into the NEC in 2002. This is from the Analysis of Changes 2002 NEC published by the International Association of Electrical Inspectors
The only danger is from one of the neutrals being removed while the others are still energized.
This is why you still find electricians that will continue to install them and will never stop. There is no danger in the operation of the system itself only if it ever needs to be changed. Those electricians that continue to make the installations also think that no one should be working in a panel unless they know what they are doing so therefore they can’t see the danger.
As you said, “I see a EGC and grounded conductor from the same circuit under a single screw very often”
How many of these look like they have any kind of damage?
How many was working just fine?
Where did you see a danger other than all the hype that has been thrown around about the matter?
If you see it and feel that there is a problem by all means call it out but in the same sentence let me say, don’t be offended if an electrician comes along and says that it is not a problem or that there is nothing than can mandate it to be changed.
The bottom line is that any panel installed before the adoption of the 2002 Edition of the NEC can not be force to be changed.
UL Standards are not part of the code and the code before the adoption of the 2002 edition only said that the equipment had to be installed according to any instruction that came with the equipment.
For an electrician or an inspector to have the knowledge of all the Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratories (NRTL) would cost a small fortune. There is Underwriters Laboratories, Met Laboratories, Intertec Laboratories, CSA International and National Electrical Manufacturers Association (NEMA) just to name a few. Each one of these will have a standard that is written just a little different.
Which one shall we enforce?
That is why 110.3(B) is in the code. The instructions MUST be included with the equipment or it is not enforceable. This is why there has been no big push with educators to inform the electricians and code enforcement officials about standard 67 until it was adopted into the NEC.
Are we looking at the same thing Joe?
Where do you see “Equipment Grounding Conductor”?
Is the neutral not a ground?
**Come on buddy I know you can do better than that. **
By the way, why do you have all that blank space under your signature?
The neutral is not a ground!
See the term Ground and Grounded Conductor defined in industry standards.
The two bars above serve different purposes when not in the main service equipment enclosure.
Sorry Mike but I must get back to my business, it has been fun though!
PS: Make up your mind!](http://www.nachi.org/forum/showpost.php?p=235395&postcount=3)
Ground. A conducting connection, whether intentional or accidental, between an electrical circuit or equipment and the earth or to some conducting body that serves in place of the earth.
Grounded. Connected to earth or to some conducting body that serves in place of the earth.
Grounded Conductor. A system or circuit conductor that is intentionally grounded.
ARTICLE 200 Use and Identification of Grounded Conductors
200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length.
Yes sir Joe I have enjoyed it. Hope you have a great day:)
I was messing around when I found this;
Up until I saw this I was finished with that thread unless someone had another question. Someone must have questions concerning this thread if they feel that I was wasting their time.
First let me say that in no uncertain terms am I saying to not call out anything that you as a Home Inspector feels is a danger. It has not been my intention to say that a doubled neutral should not be called out.
What I have been trying to stress is the answer to this question;
This was the question of the original poster as can be seen here
The simple answer to his question is that there is nothing that can be used to enforce the installation of one neutral per screw until the verbiage was added to the 2002 code cycle.
With all this rent and raving about Standard 67 I don’t see where anyone has posted a copy of this standard.
Just what is Standard 67? This is taken from the UL Marking Guide Panelboards 2004 that can be see here
With this information from UL it is easy to see that the verbiage used on the label is what the electrical contractor and the code enforcement official uses to determine how to install conductors.
Using the label form a panel that was posted in this thread it is easy to see that there was no verbiage to stop the doubling of the neutral under one screw.
More information on Panelboards can be obtained from the UL White Book found here Type in QEUY to go straight to panel boards in the search box.
You will find that there is no mention of Standard 67 to be found in the White Book.
The information found in the White Book is what the electrical contractor and the code enforcement official will use in determining if the installation is in compliance or not. If there is no mention of one screw one wire in the White Book then there is no mention of one screw one wire in the use and installation of the panel.
I want to point out that I have given references to every statement that I have made that backs my statements and links to the same information. The links are to UL and what the listing and labeling is on panelboards. I have also given the sections of the NEC that pertain to the question that was asked in the original post as well as the year that the section was added to the code.
I have also posted what the IAEI, the biggest educator of electrical inspectors, has to say the reason was for not doubling up the neutrals on a terminal and the only danger they mentioned was the danger involved with the removal of one of the conductors.
What I have not done is post a bunch of pictures and links with unfounded information and gibberish that means absolutely nothing concerning the subject matter. I have not tried to make it sound like the doubling up of neutrals was a life safety issue simply because it is not.
I can also promise that for every one person that thinks I am wasting their time and wants to post a red flag there are dozens out there that will use the information to be better at what they do and do it with the proper information. These will be the ones that don’t come back belittling the electrician that overturned their findings as they will have a better understanding of just what is and was required at the time of the installation.
In closing I would like to also say that a UL Standard is the guide lines used during testing and the wording contained there in has nothing to do with wording in the listing, labeling and installation instructions.
You as the Home Inspector have a choice. You can blindly follow what someone has to say just because they painted a pretty picture or you can follow those words printed by UL and the NEC.
What I have given you are these words and links that you can follow so you can see them for yourself and have not tried to influence your decision in anyway.
The final call is yours to make. The accuracy of your call will be better establish with backing from a NRTL such as UL and the codes be it the NEC or the ICC than if you use something that someone has posted on a discussion forum without any substitution other than a bunch of pictures and unfounded links.
Also remember that when I am called in as an electrician to check your findings I will be bringing with me the information that I have posted. If we both use the same information I would bet that we will both have the same findings.
Mike, Thanks for the info. I have not seen were any of the other information disputes what you are saying. I also like to have references for my defect statements, which helps keep me from looking like an idiot. I do appreciate the reference’s given. Have a good weekend!
****](http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/uploads/Jim%20Katen/20063922119_Double%20Tap.doc)
See the attached UL Pages from the Directory where UL 67 is identified!
Always was required, that’s the key!
Look again!](http://www.inspectorsjournal.com/forum/uploads/Jim%20Katen/20063922119_Double%20Tap.doc)
“In case you’re interested, UL 67 has always required the one-neutral-per-terminal rule but the NEC has only specifically articulated that requirement since 2002. (See the attached code panel log.)”**
**
Joe, When was Standard 67 accepted as part of the UL listing ?