# Neutral and ground **URL:** \ **Category:** Public Archive\ **Created:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/1 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: kwilliams** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Neutral and ground together ? Ok, I know this has been covered BUT Is it EVER ok for them to be together? This is the main service panel. new house that is not done yet ( power is not run to the house yet ) ![](upload://gZ0I7tOKIx12Nvvps0AcCJzo0os.jpeg) * * * -- Member - MAB [http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm](http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/2 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: cbuell** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * grounds and neutrals typically should not terminate under the same screw * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/3 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: chorne** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * kp, good question, lets see what the electricians say! * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/4 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: jpope** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * This connection is fine for service equipment. . . ![](upload://2VNZeeOMtBh4wjCO8NouIzbawPY.jpeg) These connections (grounds and neutrals under the same lug) are not okay - service equipment or not. . . ![](upload://4oleBoQxW8naypojx7kLNmh9IYB.jpeg) * * * -- Jeff Pope JPI Home Inspection Service "At JPI, we'll help you look better" (661) 212-0738 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/5 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: kwilliams** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * | **cbuell wrote:** | | grounds and neutrals typically should not terminate under the same screw | This I know, the question is, is it EVER ok * * * -- Member - MAB [http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm](http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/6 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: lkage** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Kevin, I had a couple of electricians tell me that the intent of NEC 408.21 is like this quote from Mike Holt's site: "The intent of this requirement is to ensure that the grounded (neutral) conductor of a multiwire branch circuit is not momentarily disconnected, which could result in the destruction of electrical equipment and fires from overvoltage." ...and because that was the intent some AHJs allowed the ground (grounding conductor) and neutral (grounded conductor) from the same circuit under one termination together. Ya gotta love opinions. ![icon\_lol.gif](upload://zEgbBCXRskkCTwEux7Bi20ZySza.gif) * * * -- "I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him." Galileo Galilei ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/7 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * The neutral and ground from the same circuit, under the same screw does make some sense. You should have the breaker off so it is not inherantly unsafe. If you disconnect the wrong terminal all bets are off anyway. * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/8 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: pdickerson** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Greg, The neutral and the ground from the same circuit at the same termination may make some sense as you say (I take this to mean that an unsafe situation is not likely to arise from this scenario), however it is my understanding that it is never OK (meaning it is always a code violation) to terminate a neutral with any other wire. That is the question in the original post. * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/9 "2005-10-20T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Since 2002 (whenever that was adopted in your area) it is illegal to terminate more than one grounded conductor on a lug but before that it was up to the manufacturer’s instructions, 110.3(B). If it is not clearly defined on the label the “illegality” is pretty murky, particularly when it is an old panel. * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/10 "2005-10-21T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: pdickerson** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Thanks for the clarificaton Greg. I thought I remembered reading in a previous post that the pre-2002 NEC’s intent was to dis-allow two neutrals under 1 lug, but that it was written in a confusing way, and so they made it more clear in the 2002 NEC. I may not be remembering that right though. * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/11 "2005-10-21T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: dvalley** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Now that you got your neutral/ground question answered, I have a question. Where is that white insulated wire and the ground wire getting tapped? Same thing on the opposite side and two spaces above that one. ![](upload://4QMDaE8EwZralAUS1nN96d9wMsQ.jpeg) * * * -- David Valley MAB Member Massachusetts Certified Home Inspections [http://www.masscertified.com](http://www.masscertified.com) "Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go." ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/12 "2005-10-21T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: Steven Brewster** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * There are two more on the opposite side, just like that. * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/13 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: bbadger** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Kevin David brings up a great point, what is up with this? ![](upload://z5AaHShf7MZAKQkDUKxwQKMqIuE.jpeg) * * * -- Bob Badger Electrical Construction & Maintenance [Moderator at ECN](http://electrical-contractor.net/cgi-bin/Ultimate.cgi?action=intro) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/14 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: kwilliams** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * I think it may be the lug… as the house is still open I will try to stop by for a better view This is a phase inspection I have been doing… * * * – Member - MAB [http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm](http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/15 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: rhinck** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Kevin, I appreciated your question be cause I have been doing home inspections in central Illinois and have been a home builder for 30 yrs and have yet to see grounds and neutrals NOT under a single lug. Rick * * * ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/16 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: pabernathy** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Firstly, I personally think using the jacket on the romax to label a panel is (1) crappy and (2) not needed. In our area that would fail just for spite by most of the " CITY " inspectors. ( You know how much power the AHJ has…lol ) Secondly, I also do not ever recall in my nearly 20 yeas in the electrical business ( even in older wiring ) where I have seen a neutral and ground connected to a breaker.....heck my 7 year old son would not do that..lol Anyway...something has to be missing from this image...just not sure what....maybe they just turned them the wrong way and they are not terminated on anything...who knows... But Bob is right......I agree..." Whats up with that...lol " * * * -- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified Electrical Service Specialists Licensed Master Electrician Electrical Contractor President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter NEC Instructor Moderator @ Doityourself.com Visit our website- [www.electrical-ess.com](http://www.electrical-ess.com) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/17 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: kwilliams** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * | **rhinck wrote:** | | Kevin, I appreciated your question be cause I have been doing home inspections in central Illinois and have been a home builder for 30 yrs and have yet to see grounds and neutrals NOT under a single lug. Rick | Me too...... in regard to the "jacket on the romax to label a panel" I would hope they will take them off when they put the cover on. * * * -- Member - MAB [http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm](http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/18 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: jpope** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * | **kwilliams wrote:** | | Me too...... in regard to the "jacket on the romax to label a panel" I would hope they will take them off when they put the cover on. | I doubt they will come off. I see this often when I pull covers. * * * -- Jeff Pope JPI Home Inspection Service "At JPI, we'll help you look better" (661) 212-0738 ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/19 "2005-10-22T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: pabernathy** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * Paul, Prior to 2002, the main reference to the violation per say to (2) neutrals under one termination was covered by UL standards....But as the NEC took a look at this and bought it into the revision for 2002. It was a prevous violation because it did not meet the standards of equipment compliance in the NEC.....as the manufacturer of the panel did not intend for the neutrals to be done as such.....it just took 2002 NEC to finally place it in written form via Art. 408.21....now what allows panels to have (2) Eqp. grounds together...note Art. 110.3(b) as most panels now list this as being acceptable. * * * -- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified Electrical Service Specialists Licensed Master Electrician Electrical Contractor President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter NEC Instructor Moderator @ Doityourself.com Visit our website- [www.electrical-ess.com](http://www.electrical-ess.com) ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/d/f/df7ced6a9ca05e7c93fa949dfc12a8c10d06c887.png) [@system](https://forum.nachi.org/u/system)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786/20 "2005-12-29T00:00:00Z")
**Originally Posted By: kwilliams** **This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.** * * * another new house I did today ![](upload://gzcqYE7OfulO6hjrD2pyoP4gVrN.jpeg) * * * [Next page](https://forum.nachi.org/t/neutral-and-ground/191786.md?page=2)