Oklahoma Crisis

Originally Posted By: rhollingshead
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Folks we need your help.


The Oklahoma Association of Realtors (OAR) has sponsored an amendment to our new Home Inspectors Act, that effectively creates a loop-hole large enough to render the Act worthless.

The amendment has breezed through committee and is on it's way to the State Senate for vote.

Several of us in Oklahoma are doing what we can to make our voices heard, but we need support from our trade associations.

Dan LaBrake of HouseMaster, has assumed leadership of our local efforts and thanks to him and his wife (an attorney) we have a position paper and memorandum prepared. Would NACHI leadership please contact Dan or myself, and prepare an appropriate response from NACHI, directed to the Oklahoma State Senate?

Regards All,
Ron


--
Don't tell me it can't be done...., Just Do It!

Originally Posted By: dbush
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Ron, Nick and I have discussed this and not only will we back it, I will be there with NACHI shirts and hats on at the legislative meeting to discuss it from a National Organization standpoint, but I need to get ahold of Dan first to get my ducks in a row, which I will do next week.


Dave


--
Dave Bush
MAB Member

"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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What is the Oklahoma problem and the crisis. The biggest complaint I hear from inspectors down that way is that about 5 groups like Vo-Tech schools, real estate training schools, and several other local entities have opened up in the state since this time last year and they’re FLOODING the market with wantabees.


Up north we hear they've more than doubled the amount of HI's in 1 year. Not conducive to raising your fees or increasing your business.

So what is the crisis or loophole you refer to???


Originally Posted By: rhollingshead
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DB,


Duh, Yep it's true that several groups opened schools across the State for HIs. But that's probably because the state legislation required classroom hours for licensing.

The market has NOT been flooded with wannabes, in fact there are now fewer licensed HIs than were listed in the phone books a year ago. You've just heard the fearful voices of some very lazy and unqualified HI usetabes.

Sorry to be an a$% in response, but I've bought or sold over 100 homes in the last 10 years and the average inspection wasn't worth the paper it was printed on, most took less than 45 minutes and one took less than 15 minutes. The ol' boy that did the 15 minute inspection was too fat to get on the roof or in the attic, or even bend over often enough to check under the sinks. That particular money pit later burned down because of faulty wiring in the attic. I became one of those new inspectors to make a difference in the industry around here.

As for the Crisis. The Oklahoma Association of Realtors, has sponsored a bill that allows qoute, "a professional craftsman whose expertise in the specific area or by persons qualified by education or training to conduct that specific inspection." Basically, the bill removes the need for licensing to conduct inspections.

Sorry if my belief in qualified, educated, and licensed inspectors rubs anybody the wrong way.

Regards,
Ron


--
Don't tell me it can't be done...., Just Do It!

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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Ron - Maybe I didn’t say it right. If you thought your post rubbed me the wrong way - it didn’t and I apologise for not saying it better.


As someone thats done this for 26 years, and does 3-6 expert witness cases a month I see realy dumb s#!t from seasoned inspectors as well as newbies. I do 4-5 cases a year against licensed engineers that don't know the first thing about inspecting a home. I'm doing 4 this month on long time successful builders, that would do the world a favor by getting into shoe sales. I constantly see tradesman that think because they built a deck, roofed a house, installed a toilet that they should be allowed to become a licensed home inspector with no FORMAL Classroom TRAINING in home inspection. Worse yet, I see guys/gals thinking they're competent and qualified to be a home inspector because they passed a state licensing exam and bought insurance.

You know you got ripped off on the prior home inspections. To start with being good doesn't mean being slow, and anyone can complete an inspection on a small, clean home in 1.5 - 2 hours once in awhile - BUT the national average according to several past polls by groups like ASHI, CREIA, NAR or NAHI indicate the average inspector takes about 2.5 - 3.5 hours for the average sized house (under 2500 sf).

In a great percentage of the expert witness cases I see, the inspector was (1) referred by the realestator; (2) cheap or both.

I figure this a home inspection is a "Pay Now, or Pay Later" program. Many of the folks that got ripped off (sorry to say), got exactly what they paid for - a quick, cheap inspection.


No its a real


Originally Posted By: tallen
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Gone



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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from the HI licensing act of any state for PARTS of the home inspection, BUT NOT for doing a WHOLE Home Inspection.


Is that what you guys are referring to in Oklahoma or is it something else?


Originally Posted By: ktrice
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Dan that is what they are refering to (when Ron mentioned the loopholes in the licensing bill). Dan LaBrake is spearheading this effort here in Oklahoma for us, however it was Brad Stringer and his wife Sheila (she is the Attorney) that wrote the paper that has been introduced to the senate to stop this bill from becoming a reality. We have called and emailed the congressmen and senators that are in charge of this bill to let them know that we are opposed to it. I have contacted Nick and Dave about this also. We are hoping that we can stop this bill from going any further than it has by showing that we are opposed to it. We have over 250 licensed inspectors here in the state and I feel that if we can get them to voice there opinion to the right people we can stop this now. I have the list of of people to contact with there email address for anyone that wants to voice an opinion on this matter to the state of Oklahoma.


Thanks
Ken Trice
Oklahoma Chapter President
www.tricehomeinspections.com


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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Sorry guys, but I oppose legislation that limits a persons ability to enter a new field. Ron, it sounds like you are trying to do just that, and that this amendment allows other tradesman to conduct home inspections.


Why do you have a problem with that, and why should NACHI back legislation which restricts entry into this profession?


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
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dbowers wrote:
To all -

Any licensing laws I've ever seen passed anywhere allow someone like a licensed electrician, plumber, HVAC contractor, etc to do his/her own occupation without being licensed as a HI. Every licensing law I've ever seen allow the appraiser to examine the house to fix a value on it without being part of the HI law, because thats his/her job . Every HI licensing law I've ever seen allows a real estate agent to examine the house (such as for listing purposes) and be exept from the licensing laws for HI because thats part of their job as real estate people. A licensed structural engineer can do a structural analysis of the foundation without falling under the HI licensing act because thats part of his function as a structural engineer. These and many other professions can typically be exempted from the HI licensing act of any state for PARTS of the home inspection, BUT NOT for doing a WHOLE Home Inspection.

Is that what you guys are referring to in Oklahoma or is it something else?


Ron:

I am loosing something in this posting.

Are you suggesting that Oklahoma is looking to make changes where a Craftsman such as a Roofer (without a HI License) can inspect an Entire home and issue a Home Inspection Report including the Plumbing, Electrical and Mechanical Components?


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: jhagarty
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



jfarsetta wrote:
Sorry guys, but I oppose legislation that limits a persons ability to enter a new field. Ron, it sounds like you are trying to do just that, and that this amendment allows other tradesman to conduct home inspections.

Why do you have a problem with that, and why should NACHI back legislation which restricts entry into this profession?


Joe F:

I am not for anyone entering the Home Inspection profession looking for a free ride. I am also not in favor of making the entry into the business impossible. There needs to be Training, Testing and a Qualification process in place. Home Inspection is a serious Business and needs to be regarded as such.


--
Joseph Hagarty

HouseMaster / Main Line, PA
joseph.hagarty@housemaster.com
www.householdinspector.com

Phone: 610-399-9864
Fax : 610-399-9865

HouseMaster. Home inspections. Done right.

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Right, Joe…


The question is that this state already has legislation in place for HIs. From what I understang, the beef is that others may be able to conduct an inspection as well. Typically, other professionals are able to perform inspections as they pertain to their area or expertise and scope.

What is unclear here is whether the contractor's involvement is limited to their ara of expertise, or broadened to allow an entire inspection.

If it is the former, I cant understand the beef


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: dbowers
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



without following the same rules a licensed Oklahoma HI would have to - then no way Jose! If the proposed new part of the law is saying that in a transfer of real estate - a licensed electrician can check-out the electrical system; a licensed plumber can check the plumbing system; a licensed structural engineer can check the foundation; a code inspector can check out code issues of the house … without being a home inspector - - guess what they’re right - they can. It would probably be illegal to stop them.


Dan Bowers


Originally Posted By: rhollingshead
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Thanx for the response guys. This is going to be a long post icon_rolleyes.gif


Dan, I got the mailer Ken referred to late in the eve., after a very hard week and went ballistic, you got caught in the collateral damage
I always look forward to your input on a variety of subjects, sorry. BTW, I too serve as a professional witness for the industry and I'm sure we could spend hours swapping horror stories.

Joe H, our current law allows exceptions for the licensed professionals you mentioned. However, the new bill allows "single item inspections by professional craftsmen", without defining single item or professional craftsman. Roofers inspecting roofs were used as an example in committee, but a framer could just as easily be asked to give a structural inspection. (see the problem?) The roofer can tell me I need a new roof but he's not qualified to determine if the roof failed prematurely because there isn't enough ventilation in the attic space.

Joe F, I respectfully disagree (I think). I believe that there should be barriers to entry into the HI field or any other industry, where knowledge and experience is a neccessity in the performance of the job. I wouldn't want a surgeon to operate on me, just because he had a table and a knife. And I don't want anymore HIs around here, just because they have a brochure and a ladder, as has been the case for HIs for decades.

Regards to all,
Ron


--
Don't tell me it can't be done...., Just Do It!

Originally Posted By: Scott Patterson
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What in the world is wrong with a professional inspecting an item(s) in their field of expertise?


A roofer should be able to inspect a roof.
A plumber should be able to inspect the plumbing.
A electrician should be able to inspect the electrical system.
A framer (if the client wants the risk) should be able to inspect the framing.

And the list can go on. I just don't see the problem with it and I sit on a state home inspector regulatory board.


Originally Posted By: dlabrake
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I will try to clear up the issue here.


Oklahoma put HI licensing in place July 1, 2003 and had the expected execptions:
Any tradesman licensed in their trade (Elec, HVAC, Plumbing) can inspect those areas, but cannot inspect any other area they are not licensed in.

Also the law exempted Registered Professional Engineers and Licensed Architects.

So the issue is now that the Oklahoma Association of Realtors has introduced a bill to amend our licensing law. Our licensing indicates that anyone inspecting "for a fee" must be licensed, so any vocation that is not licensed cannot perform inspections for a fee (i.e roofers, masons, etc)

The bill being pushed through now has the following statement:

"Any single item inspection requested by a client, whether or not the item to be inspected is specifically included or excluded in the definition of home inspection as defined in Section 858-622 of this title, shall be performed by a professional craftsman whose expertise in the specific area or by persons qualified by education or training to conduct that specific inspection. If a signle-item that has been requested for inspection is an area of expertise that is licensed by the state, then that person conducting the inspection shall be licensed in respect to that particular area."

Basically, anyone can inspect anything as long as they say they are qualified to do so. This eliminates any consumer protection from non-licensed individuals who have no mandated standards to follow. Anyone can do any inspections as long as they are not for a fee. We have a four page position paper that was written in response and we are trying to stop the bill from destroying the credibility of our licenses.

If anyone wants to read the complete information is is posted on www.orcia.org, under the IMPORTANT INFO tab.


Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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If not, than you are whistling in the dark, if you are concerned about a person performing an inspection that is not fee-based.

The idea of ALL HI legislation is to protect the client from a bad home inspection. The sole item which protects the client is E&O insurance. Everyone conveniently glosses over this fact. Additionally, most HI legislation limits activities to those performing FEE BASED inspections.

Quote:
Any single item inspection requested by a client, whether or not the item to be inspected is specifically included or excluded in the definition of home inspection as defined in Section 858-622 of this title, shall be performed by a professional craftsman whose expertise in the specific area or by persons qualified by education or training to conduct that specific inspection. If a signle-item that has been requested for inspection is an area of expertise that is licensed by the state, then that person conducting the inspection shall be licensed in respect to that particular area."



Quote:
The roofer can tell me I need a new roof but he's not qualified to determine if the roof failed prematurely because there isn't enough ventilation in the attic space



So, you are telling me that a roofer is not qualified to perform a roof inspection because you feel that he doesnt know about attic ventilation?

You've GOT to be kidding me...


Quote:
And I don't want anymore HIs around here, just because they have a brochure and a ladder, as has been the case for HIs for decades.


And THIS is the biggest problem with HI legislation today. IMO, HI should be registered and required to carry E&O insurance. Lose enough lawsuits, and lose your ability to get E&O. No E&O, no license. Seems all too simple.

This last statement you made exemplifies protectionism for the inspector, restricts free trade, and does not ensure that the consumer gets a quality inspection. I can make the argument that a team of home building professionals (eg: plumber, electrician, framer, roofer, rocker, HVAC professional, mason, etc) inspecting a home can do as good a job, and many times a better job of inspecting a home, than many of the most seasoned inspectors. This solution is not practical for real estate transactions, however. My point is to not discount the knowledge and experience of a tradesperson, simply because they are not a HI


--
Joe Farsetta

Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: dlabrake
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Joe


To defend myself, I did not make the 2 last comments you quoted, they were made by someone else.

Our state licensing is very weak, in that we are only required to carry $50K of GL, no E&O required (I do carry E&O). An yes, our licensing does only apply to those doing fee based inspections.

So, as an example, even though a roofer is most likely qualified to do a roof inspection, by our law he cannot do one "for a fee" since he is not licensed as a roofer (no licensing exists). He can do a inspection for free and then get the repair job, but that puts him at odds with the consumer in that he only gets paid if he garners work from the inspection.

We fall under the consumer protection department of our state and like all other state licensing of HI's, it is there to protect the client from "tradesman" looking for repair or replacement work.

Although our law is weak (in my estimate) it is a beginning for us in Oklahoma and this bill would eliminate the need for anyone to be a licensed home inspector. I could say that I am a "qualified tradesman" by virtue of my education and experience. If this bill passes, no one needs to renew their license because we can all just claim to be "tradesmen" and we are right back where we started, with the intent of the law to protect the consumers.

The issue is not that people cannot inspect items in their line of work, but rather that the law says that if you are going to charge for an inspection, you have to be licensed by the state either as a home inspector or another licensing entity (Plumbing, Elec, HVAC).

Hope this clears it up.


Originally Posted By: shuggins
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I wanted to be the first to Thank!! Dave Bush for coming to Oklahoma City. I think we can come to a agreement, before this matter goes to the floor. We had a good turn-out at the capital and seems that both parties will agree that the House Bill 2627 is very unclear.


Dave, Thanks again and sorry I had to run off. I'll get lunch next time.

Spencer,


--
Spencer Huggins
H & H Inspection Services, LLC
Piedmont, Oklahoma
spencer@hhinspections.com
http//www.hhinspections.com

Oklahoma NACHI Chapter Vice President
shuggins@ok.nachi.org

Originally Posted By: dbowers
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, that if you really want to tie your abilkity to get licensed into your ability to get insurance - you’re 2 beers short of a 6-pak. Doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, realestators, et, etc don’t do that - why should we??


I've carried E&O inssurance for all but 2 years since 1985, so I believe in it as a good business practice - but I do a ton of expert witness, where its very obvious the HI was not at fault.

Examples: The seller hid the defects; the realtor knew they were there and said nothing; they had a previous inspection and found the defects but didn't say anything to the current inspector; the problem obviously came up AFTER the inspection - but the new buyer doesn't care about right or wrong, or any of that , he or she just wants someone to pay for the problems and doesn't care who as long as its not him / her.

An inspector gets unlucky enough to have 1 or 2 of those suits and right or wrong his insurance either goes through the sky or he gets cancelled. At that point if E&O is mandatory for his license hes out of business.

Think About It!!