One Circuit/One Breaker

Originally Posted By: ddubose
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I got in an argument with a homeowner, no big surprise, over two branch circuits in one breaker. I said it shouldn’t be and he said it was legal. He wanted me to show him that he was wrong and I can’t find a reference in code check or any other reference books I have. Am I wrong, or is he and where can I find that reference?


Thanks for the help,


DDuBose


South Carolina


Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
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Are you talking about a double tap? If so, there are many replys and a whole thread on that here. Just do a search on it. I think one of the posts even had a link or quote of the NEC page.


Blaine


Originally Posted By: csoutherland
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Check the National Electrical Code: 110.14, 210.24, 240.4, 310.15, 310.16.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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As with most things in the NEC there is not a yes or no answer to this question. icon_razz.gif


1)Some breakers are rated to take two conductors.

2)What circuits are being put together?

If you put both required 20 amp kitchen circuits on one breaker you would have a violation.

If you hooked up two general purpose branch circuits under one breaker you would not have a violation.

240.4, 310.15 and 310.16 would only be issues if the breaker that has two circuits is rated higher than ether conductor.

210.24 could be a violation if with these two branch circuits connected together the total rating of utilization equipment fastened in place, other than luminaires (lighting fixtures), shall not exceed 50 percent of the branch-circuit ampere rating where lighting units, cord-and-plug-connected utilization equipment not fastened in place, or both, are also supplied.

110.14 Would come into play if the breaker was not rated for two conductors.

This is easily solved with a wire nut and a pigtail.

Believe me guys I am not trying to bust anyones chops, just trying to point out that one answer will not fit every situation.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Actually, we have two issues here, both with different answers.


DDuBose said " ... over two branch circuits in one breaker." There is nothing inherently wrong with two, or three, or however many branch circuits you want on a circuit breaker.

Blaine correctly identified the other issue "Are you talking about a double tap?" Multiple taps (I use multiple taps instead of double taps because that also includes three or more in the 'more than one') are not allowed ... unless the terminal is approved for it. Basically, then, if it is not a Square D breaker with the twin captive plate under the screw head, only one conductor is allowed.

So it becomes HOW the conductor(s) are terminated, not HOW MANY are on the breaker.

How do you solve this on other breakers? By removing the two (or three or more) conductors from the breaker, connecting them to another conductor with a wire nut (a multi-wire connector) and installing the new, single, conductor in the one-conductor-terminal of the breaker.

You now have two (or more) branches to the branch circuit, both of which must have properly sized overcurrent protection. I.e., you could have three 30 amps circuits on a single 30 amp breaker, and each would be protected properly. The circuit rating (for all three combined) would also be 30 amps, because that is the rating of the overcurrent protection.

One exception, is, of course, FPE, Those thingys don't trip anyway (at least not very often), so you have no (reliable) overcurrent protection, and your circuit is whatever you can put on it until the main transformer blows or the wires melt down. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Anyway, before I get to be a Deleted User here to, I'd better go.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Bob and Jerry are on the money.


2002 NEC 110.14(A) would require one wire per terminal, unless listed for connecting multiple wires. Even if the breakers are listed for connecting two wires (e.g. some Square-D QO breakers), there are additional limitations as Bob pointed out.

Also, I consider double connections on more heavily loaded circuits "poor practice" even if permitted by code. That could cause nuisance trips that may prompt an unwitting homeowner to upgrade the breaker which would likely overload the wires ... ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)

Also see the following topic where "double taps" was hashed out pretty good ... and that includes some posts on the special breakers listed for two wires ...

http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/viewtopic.php?t=927


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: ddubose
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Thanks for the help, now I can explain why you shouldn’t double tap to the homeowner. I knew I didn’t know everything, now I know I only know a little (I already knew that but didn’t what to admit it). Now that I understand how to use this message board, you will hear from me again.


Thanks again,


David


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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David … I respect someone who says “I dont know for sure” … “but this is what I think” or “I can check into that”


Dont be afraid to admit your limitations, and learn something new every day. I have been in this field for longer than I want to remember, but I am still learning ... ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: jremas
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Bob B.,… great reply and very direct. Thank you for your input to this forum. Jerry P & Bob O, thanks for your input as well. We all learn from this and improve our services as a result.






Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Thanks for the welcome here, it seems like a great site with guys that care about their profession. icon_biggrin.gif


I too have much respect for those that can admit they do not know it all.

I can provide some links to threads where I got blown out of the water.

The NEC has a lot of twists an turns, I have never met anyone that can say "I Know it all".

Back to two "circuits" on one breaker.

What is a circuit?

As an example I just did a 7-11 store and the plan called for 3 outdoor outlets on the same circuit for servicing outdoor equipment.

I could have left the panel once and run around in and out of each outlet and it would have worked fine.

It was just as easy to leave the panel 3 times and make a home run to each outlet, at the panel I used a wire nut to pigtail them so one wire lands on the breaker.

Now if some one looks at this their first though might be WOW three circuits on on e breaker, what a hack.

The truth is it is still only 3 outlets and the way I did it provides less voltage drop and is more flexible.

Lets say down the road they add an outside vending machine that needs a dedicated circuit, the wires could be moved onto separate breakers.

Of course there are times we see loads doubled up that should not be.

My suggestion is to see what is doubled up before saying there is a problem.

Say you write up a doubled up circuit, your customer calls in a sparky and the sparky finds that the doubled up circuit is from when someone added a single outlet somewhere and added it to a breaker that was lightly loaded to begin with.

Have you done the customer a service by having them pay for the sparkys time just to say it is fine.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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"Have you done the customer a service by having them pay for the sparkys time just to say it is fine. "


Excellent point.

You do not want someone like me coming in behind you and saying "I concur with the orginal Electrical Safety Inspector. This home IS code compliant. ESI OH Cert. #1820."

I do not like when little old ladies have to pay someone like me to "fix" things required by a home inspector, but were not required, at the time of construction, by the NEC. They usually get the money they pay me back from the home inspector or the Realtor that "told them" that the house would not sell unless they fix these problems.

This is why I always tell you "guys" to be damn careful when commenting on electrical systems.

If you are shown to be unqualified to look at the electric, look how this effects your whole report.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: mbailey
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Mark Bailey


Stonegate Property Inspections LLC


Ponca, NE

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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No No No.


"The little old lady that called you because an HI recommended a licensed electrician provide further evaluation just made a major purchase and paid an HI $xxx to inspect it "

This is the seller. This is who is harmed. HI and Realtor tell little old lady house will not sell unless repairs are made.

Recommending an electrician is different than stating for a fact that something is unsafe. This is the line that I am trying to help those of lesser knowledge keep from crossing.

This is not said from my high horse. It is said from one who sees the unqualified opinions given by those who want to impress the clients.

I say that I do not know all the time.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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mbailey wrote:
lMaybe instead of mocking us for doing our jobs at or above the standards set by our profession ? you should be thankful that we send work your way, where your specialized training and skills can shine.


I am very sorry you feel that way, it is not my intention to mock anyone.

We all have a job to do, and while I would not want a HI actually doing wiring I feel they can perform a valuable service for the homeowner.

A homeowner can pay one price to get a pretty good total picture of their home with use of a home inspecting professional.

I am under the impression that members of this forum are professionals and care about the job they do.

Every situation is different, most times to determine what is doubled up only involves turning circuits on and off, this is in the scope of anyone.

You have totally misunderstood my intentions here if you think I am mocking HIs.

I am here to share my knowledge of the NEC and wiring in general, not to bash anyone.


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: nlewis
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[quote]You do not want someone like me coming in behind you and saying “I concur with the orginal Electrical Safety Inspector. This home IS code compliant. ESI OH Cert. #1820.”


I do not like when little old ladies have to pay someone like me to "fix" things required by a home inspector, but were not required, at the time of construction, by the NEC. They usually get the money they pay me back from the home inspector or the Realtor that "told them" that the house would not sell unless they fix these problems.[/quote](alt+q)

Mike,

Are you certifying that the panel box installed in 1965 is compliant for 1965 standards. That the kitchen remodeled in 1985 is compliant to 1985 standards, etc?

Are we crossing the line if we recommend GFCI outlets for the kitchen remodeled in 1985? Would you tell the little old lady not to install GFCI outlets in the 1985 kitchen because they were not required at that time and because it is already code compliant.

If the local AHJ requires GFCI outlets in the 1985 kitchen for the Certificate of Occupancy inspection, he can justify it, but the HI can't?

I would hope that a professional HI is not telling the seller that they can't sell the house without doing certain upgrades. I don't make those type of statements. I'm sure many realtors are offering their opinion on this type of situation.


Originally Posted By: jremas
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Many times a HI will recommend further evaluation by a licenced electrician. We do this because we are not an expert in electrical construction, just generalist like you mentioned. We also do that because the electrician needs to evaluate the situation for repairs so the new buyer has an idea on the costs involved with the repair or upgrade. Finances play a very important part in the prospective buyer’s decision in purchasing the home. They need to know solid prices from the plumber, electrician, HVAC specialist, general contractor, etc… The prices vary in each area that I work in and nailing down an estimate is difficult. Let me give you an example. In one particular town, a 2 story home was rewired with a new 200amp service, 100amp sub-panel and all upgraded wiring for $7,000. I had another home in a larger city to do the exact same thing and the buyer got prices of $10,000., $12,000. and $13,000. This was way more than she anticipated spending so she backed out of the deal. Recently, I spec’d out $3,800. for a 203k job that I am consulting for a new 200 amp service, 100amp sub-panel, 3 new circuits run and some small other stuff. It is an older home with plaster/lath walls and some of the knob and tube had to be torn out. Well guess what? They found someone to come in and to all the work for $2,200. He is licensed, Insured and has been around awhile. Quite a suprise because I was holding my breath in that city in hopes of finding someone to do it for the $3,800. that I spec’d out due to previous experiences in that city.


So we don't always refer just because we may not know exactly what is going on, it's mostly to put cost factors in perspective. At least that is the way that I do things. In other situations, what we find may just scratch the surface of what is hidden. Remember, this is not an invasive inspection. An electrician with some fancy gadgets, tools and toys just may find a little more that we can while following our standards of practice.


--


Jeff Remas
REMAS Inspections, Inc.
Northeastern PA & the Poconos
www.NEPAinspector.com

570-362-1598

Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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I am not going to get into a battle with anyone, you are all free to do what you want.


I will still be more than happy to help out with NEC questions.

Bob


--
Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

Originally Posted By: mbailey
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Bob & Mike,


I am not trying to be adversarial but only reply to your comments as an HI. And as I mentioned your advice and opinions are valued.

Part of my point was that many specialists get irked when we do not perform additional analysis ? there are reasons we do not ? most of us are quite capable of performing troubleshooting in many areas (not just electrical) but we can not or do not because it is outside the scope of the inspection. What may be a simple bit of troubleshooting to figure out a situation is sometimes just not possible for us to do if we follow our standards of practice.

Turning circuit breakers on/off is out of the scope of HI ? our inspection is a visual one. We report what we see ? we typically do not operate circuit breakers or plumbing valves for example. Let me say here and now that everyone does things differently and I am in no way speaking for all HI's.

Both Jeff R. and Neal L. had some good comments about what we look at and why we call out various items, including recommending a sparky to provide additional evaluation.

Mike P. ? I see the intent of your comments, thanks for the additional wording. I think perhaps we were both looking at the same thing just from different perspectives. I was looking at it from the buyer?s point of view; you appear to be looking at it from the seller?s angle ? and I think I understand your train of thought about unscrupulous or unqualified behavior whether it be a realtor or an HI. Let me know if I still do not get what you are saying.


--
Mark Bailey
Stonegate Property Inspections LLC
Ponca, NE

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Jeff,Neal, & Mark


Yes. You guys are doing it correctly and now I am being understood.

My posts are many times, no all the time, short. I like to get to the point and I do not always convey my point(s) clearly.

"If the local AHJ requires GFCI outlets in the 1985 kitchen for the Certificate of Occupancy inspection, he can justify it, but the HI can't? "

I do not like that the AHJ can impose expo facto. Unless it is unsafe the NEC does not give them that power. Are GFCIs safer yes. Are 2 or 3 prone outlets unsafe no. Yes you should, and I just did Thursday, recommend this upgrade. I make it with the caveat that it is not "required" to be upgraded.

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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… this is not directed at anyone in particular, but try to be mindful that Bob and other licensed tradespeople are a very valuable resource. They truly are trying to be helpful (even with disagreements, as that is a way to learn … lol), but may not fully understand the HI’s positions and limitations as a general practitioner. It is fairly easy to explain.


Mike ... excellent reminder:

Mike Parks wrote:
Recommending an electrician is different than stating for a fact that something is unsafe. This is the line that I am trying to help those of lesser knowledge keep from crossing.


Bob ... try to understand that when an HI says he would "write something up", he is not writing up a code violation.

The HI may be talking about writing something up as a "concern" that may only require further evaluation (e.g. doorbell transformer in a panel, or multiple wires connected to one "gang" breaker with significant loads or in a packed panel). That is generally only a recommendation for further evaluation, and if it turns out it's really not a problem then it's no big deal.

Or, the HI might be talking about writing something up as a "significant/major defect" or "safety hazard" that is a clear issue/problem which clearly requires correction (e.g. double lug on the main or old AL wire without the correct pigtails).

The terms are not universal, but that is the gist of things. As others pointed out, we try to be very mindful of not crossing the line into "evaluations" that really should be performed by licensed specialists ... and might be a violation of state licensing laws ... I get a little touchy there too as an engineer ... ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif).

Hope that helps to understand the HI point of view a little better, and again we are glad to have you on the BB and really appreciate your assistance ...


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong