QOD for 4/3/04 (Electrical)

Originally Posted By: dbush
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Quick QOD, on my way out.



Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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I am picking my nose on this one.


What does below the counter mean? Maybe below the counter top?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Joe M. yes the question refers to the location of an outlet mounted below the worktop height, either on the sides or rear of a penninsular. ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)

BTW, please don't wipe that on your sleeve, go find a tissue.

regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"

Originally Posted By: Kevin McMahon
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jmyers wrote:


What does below the counter mean? Maybe below the counter top?

Joe Myers


it doesn't say "below" the counter....it says if the cabinet is less than____ inches above the counter... ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)


--
ABC Home Inspection, LLC

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Quote:
then receps are not allowed below counter


You just did not keep going to the end of the question.

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: tallen
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I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: John Bowman
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Damn it, I misread the question.


Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Gerry,


To HE** with that, I am flinging them across the room! ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Dave,


Mixing math symbols with really vacuous questions stinks - I object! What the he!! is the question?

tg


Originally Posted By: dbush
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For kitchen island or peninsula, if the cabinet above is LESS THAN __" to counter, then receps are not allowed below counter



Dave Bush


MAB Member


"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: jfarsetta
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I cant wait for this answer… icon_lol.gif



Joe Farsetta


Illigitimi Non Carborundum
"Dont let the bastards grind you down..."

Originally Posted By: tgardner
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Unfortunately, Dave, The only part I understood was the < symbol! icon_lol.gif tg


Originally Posted By: rmoore
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Code Check Electrical has the answer…Code Check regular doesn’t.


I cheated!


--
Richard Moore
Rest Assured Inspection Services
Seattle, WA
www.rainspect.com

Originally Posted By: tallen
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I have seen this one violated MANY times.



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: dbush
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Well ladies and gentlemen, Code Check Electrical seems to be necessary for many people. The correct answer is C. If there is not 20" clearance between cabinets, you CANNOT have plug under the countertop level of an island. I am at Dad’s house right now, so I cannot quote the page # of the code check or IRC, but it is there.


Gerry will post today's QOD in a little while.


--
Dave Bush
MAB Member

"LIFE'S TOUGH, WEAR A HELMET"

Originally Posted By: Kevin McMahon
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icon_lol.gif Joe…you are absolutely correct…my bad!! Thus the reason I got it wrong!!!



ABC Home Inspection, LLC

Originally Posted By: jmyers
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Quote:
210.52(5) Receptacle Outlet Location. Receptacle outlets shall be located above, but not more than 500 mm (20 in.) above, the countertop. Receptacle outlets rendered not readily accessible by appliances fastened in place, appliance garages, or appliances occupying dedicated space shall not be considered as these required outlets.


The code specifically states that receptacles can not be mounted 20 inches "above" the countertop.

The exception immediately follows:

Quote:
Exception: To comply with the conditions specified in (a) or (b), receptacle outlets shall be permitted to be mounted not more than 300 mm (12 in.) below the countertop. Receptacles mounted below a countertop in accordance with this exception shall not be located where the countertop extends more than 150 mm (6 in.) beyond its support base.


The code goes on the put conditions on the exceptions which are:

Quote:
(a) Construction for the physically impaired.

(b) On island and peninsular countertops where the countertop is flat across its entire surface (no backsplashes, dividers, etc.) and there are no means to mount a receptacle within 500 mm (20 in.) above the countertop, such as an overhead cabinet.


That means the exception can be used if there is no means, such as a cabinet above the countertop, which could be used to mount the receptacle 20 inches below the cabinet, but not above 20 inches the countertop.

In a practical installation if the cabinet above the countertop was installed 19 inches above the countertop, that still would not give you enough space to mount the receptacle on the cabinet while maintaining it was not 20 inches above the countertop.

In order to effectively mount a receptacle on this cabinet it would need to be installed around 15 inches above the island or peninsula, there by negating the space on the countertop.

From a personal standpoint I believe the intent of the code was to ensure the receptacles were mounted above the countertop when the means were available without allowing them to be mounted more than 20 inches above the countertop which would make them unusable.

To sum this up for those that are not following what I am saying, this would be a "never" used portion of the code unless you find an island or peninsula with cabinet mounted less than 15 inches above the countertop. HAVE YOU EVER SEEN ONE?

Joe Myers


Originally Posted By: roconnor
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Quote:
For kitchen island or peninsula, if the cabinet above is < (less than) 20" to counter, then receps are not allowed below counter


So if you have 6" from the counter to the cabinet (usually 18", but lets go with that), then a recep is not allowed below the counter? I don't follow.

[Also, the code rule is that you are allowed to put a required counter recep below if you can not mount it above the counter within 20" of the surface. There is some disagreement about the model codes allowing any receptacles below counter space ... CLICK HERE ... but that is what they permit.]


--
Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

Originally Posted By: tallen
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how about this. my Mother has an island 6’ long and 4’ deep the cabinets that are above are only 19" above but, they are only 24" deep and they are even with the back of the cabinet.There are 2 recepts as the code says must be there for an Island this long(wide)but, they are placed at the front of the Island where there is nothing above. So, how do you interpret the code ??. I would say this is open to interpitation by the AHJ.


MHO



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: gbeaumont
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Hi to all,


Rob, here is the codecheck page in question, this is codecheck electrical referencing both the 1999 & 2002 NEC.

![](upload://q6TYdaEM9KPTphUVKDFpzdz4f0I.jpeg)

regards

Gerry


--
Gerry Beaumont
NACHI Education Committee
e-mail : education@nachi.org
NACHI phone 484-429-5466

Inspection Depot Education
gbeaumont@inspectiondepot.com

"Education is a journey, not a destination"