IMHO it is a FP Stab Lok. Does not need a thermal investigation to know that most of them have failed or WILL fail. Panel needs to be replaced. Best advice one could give their client about that panel.
I do not wear an electrician’s hat when doing a electrical scan that is why I stepped beyond the Hi and received my level 2 training to qualify me for interpreting the electrical images and how to tune the camera and the images before I make a call. IR is just a tool for reading temp of any electrical/mechanical/rotating equipment. If one decides to scan anything that produces heat it is a absolute necessity that you ensure you are producing the correct temp with your camera and that you understand what the MFG’s heat limitations are for the given item. If you can only produce 110 degrees on a 220 volt double pole breaker and make the call that it is excessive you probably need some more training. That is my opinion for what it is worth and I do not say this sarcastically its just a fact of life.
How many FP panels have you personally observed in the fail mode or are you advising on what you have read
The question of “how far should you go, when doing more than the
SoP?”… could go on forever. My primary job as an inspector is to
report any defects and turn it over to a specialist for further
inspections and repairs. If your afraid to go beyone the SoP, then
don’t buy an IR camera.
If a person wants to brag that they go further than the next guy,
there is always someone who can go even further still. Use any
example and I can show you how it could be carried even further.
But, if the defect is reported, then that is the primary goal of the inspector.
So far, I have never had one complaint from electricians who come
behind me.
Not that I am fighting the FPE issues, but I have seen many of these panels in operation without problems.
Clients are advised of the issues. Is it the HI’s job to demand replacement? Under what authority?
It seems to me that there is no “requirement” to “replace these panels on site”.
Am I missing something?
I have not either, have had statements like how in the He!! did you find that.
David my primary city I inspect in has approximately 75% FP panels there is no requirement to replace we have two insurance companies here that will not insure a home with FP panels. I inspect the FP the same as I would any other panel. I just inform the client of the past history on these panels and my job is complete.
I have seen many FPE panels that appear fine and I have seen many with internal scorch marks, burn insulation, trip breakers, loose breakers and breakers that fall out and apart when you remove the dead front cover (I will no longer remove the dead front cover on them, business decision). As an inspector we can recommend replacement but we CANNOT make anyone replace them.
They are problematic panels and I recommend to all my clients that they be replaced. It may be working today yet new people in the building with new electrical demands and poof up pops a problem. Kind of like the Premier Furnaces are you willing to take that chance or let your client?
I like the fact that a thermal image was taken of a FPE panel in action as that actually will back up any further recommendations.
This is the concern, though not necessarily justified by science.
The Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) did conduct product testing of these breakers and found that their failure rates were significant.
The CPSC’s advice concerning these panels is for consumers to avoid overloading circuits as well as to turn off and have examined any devices that are causing the circuit breakers to trip.
http://www.cahillinspection.com/FPE.htm
I recommend replacement.
This is what I always write in my reports when I find a FPE panel in a home I am inspecting:
"The main electrical distribution panel is a Federal Pacific Electric (FPE) brand panel with FPE “Stab-lok” type circuit breakers. While there are varying opinions regarding the reliability of FPE equipment Stab-lok circuit breakers and their ability to consistently provide proper overcurrent protection, there are documented reports of some FPE Stab-lok circuit breakers failing to trip and shut off the power to their related circuits when an overcurrent condition has occurred. This has resulted in overheating, arcing, and, in some instances, electrical system fires. When FPE Stab-lok circuit breaker failure has occurred, replacement of both the circuit breakers and the panel with non-FPE equipment has been necessary to reduce the potential for the occurrence of ADVERSE CONDITIONS in the panel and to provide a more reliable system. Because this type of electrical service equipment has an established history of a higher circuit breaker failure rate than equipment produced by other manufacturers, the presence of the FPE panel is a condition for which REPAIR OR REPLACE is recommended.
Additional information regarding FPE panels and Stab-lok circuit breakers can be found at the website for the United States Consumer Product Safety Commission (CPSC) and Daniel Friedman’s website inspect-ny.com."
ps…If you are going to conduct electrical infrared scans while conducting home inspections, it might be a prudent idea to get the proper training (Level II). IMHO.
Stay safe out there!!!
Kevin
Someone may have beat me to it but…
Stab-Lok panels have poor contact at the breaker-to-bus connection by design. These panels run hotter than other panels under a load. Every time the panel warms…metal objects expand. When the load reduces or ceases…metal objects cool. Add this to a 40+ year old stab-lok panel and things get loose. Electrical equipment doesn’t get better with age.
Over the life of the panel, this “heat cycling” leads to loosening of…well…everything in the panel…
The breaker “fingers” loosen at the bus and every mechanical metal connection experiences the same fate…loose equals hot…hot equals heat cycling…heat cycling equals loose. It has a snowball effect. From an IR standpoint, you can witness the same effect that would occur if you were to take a 3/0 gage wire and splice in a section of 8 gage…if you were to look at that splice with IR you would see the 8 gage wire glowing like a beacon (if it wouldn’t melt 1st). Poor contact effectually reduces amp capacity. When you reduce amp carrying capacity without reducing the amperage the circuit has to live with, the result is heat. Usually very focused/concentrated heat that needs to go somewhere, usually transferred through conduction to nearby components.
Essentially, poor contact due to loosening and/or oxidation (which usually accompanies loosening due to age) is very easily spotted in a thermograph and highlights the benefit of IR for electricity…
We’ve had the ability to to *quantitatively *evaluate electrical systems for decades with ammeters, voltmeters, and every other gadget. IR allows you to see things previously not possible. You have to be careful though…quantitative analysis of an electrical system cannot be accurately performed without 1st eliminating any heat associated with loose connectors, and that can’t be accomplished without referring it to an electrician. Given these facts, going much further than finding “hot” is dangerous and bordering on guesswork regardless of your certification level.
A correctly wired circuit will have a somewhat even temperature distribution with no apparent hot spots. Think about it…there’s nothing inside of a panel except mechanical contacts…they’re the only heat source and they act like a lightbulb if loose.
I don’t really have a source for this information, just common knowledge of what happens to a circuit when you throw contacts into the mix. In the case of Charlies defect…its not the 200+ degree heat that’s inherently dangerous, its the arcing, sparking, and melting that occurs when the contact degrades further, which can lead to momentary temperature spikes reaching the equivelant temperature of a welders electrode.
It is highly possible there is a loose connection at the breaker which would generate heat and cause an unbalance in the temperature readings.
This loose connection could be at the range itself.:roll:
Jon Anderson, level III certified IR thermographer
Here’s a stab-lok I inspected today. I come across a lot of these panels. This example is one of the more modern versions installed in a home built in 85. There were no problems with this panel but I will still recommend an upgrade.
Do a search for this document…
“FPE Panels - Hazard or Hype”
It’s one of the best resources I’ve found concering these panels. I tried to attach it but its too big. Its available on the web.
Bingo now you are singing my song in the last couple of years since I have been using the IR Camera on electrical panels I have made a point to confirm if the lugs on the breaker are loose when I find a extremely hot spot and if not loose at the breaker confirm with the electrician that it was loose at the wall outlet and I have found a tremendous amount of kitchen cook stoves with loose connection and it does not make a difference if it is FP or not. The normal use of a kitchen range and the amount of amperage in use over time will create loose wires.
Are you saying that you check the connections, or have an electrician with you during your inspections to check them?
I find these breakers about 20 times a year.
I dedicate an entire web page on FPE breakers…
http://www.masscertifiedhomeinspections.com/?D=96
Great page and info David. 