See Through Walls?

http://www.homesafeinspection.com/templates/hshome/images/home-ir-001.gif

See through walls?

http://www.homesafeinspection.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=139&Itemid=33

I can see the future using my crystal ball, I see these guys going to court.

I will give anyone a fair chance to justify their claims… has anyone
seen their IR camera and methods in action? I am not bashing anyone,
I would just like to know.

I think Steve Ramos is familar with Homesafe, perhaps he knows.

John - On my son’s first tour in Iraq (US Marines) he called me one day to tell me about helo and a helmet** they had (have) that could look into houses to see people AND caches of weapons. If they saw weapons they marked the house for “future consideration.”

I thought, that probably beats my RAZ-IR by a huge margin. But I know my RAZ can’t see “inside walls…” Should we pool our money and send someone to take the class?

** Probably a satellite too, but we’ll never hear about that…

The infrared camera is the only thing I read about on their page.
I know the military has developed some advanced technology, but
I am not sure if anyone is doing home inspections with it.

John - Looks like Homesafe is partnered with Kaplan ITA and offers classes and on-line classes. It seems like they are all the same entity, on the same ad together - someone like you should go to the class and rip them apart. I will help contribute toward the cost… looks like Wilford Brimley demonstrates how to use the device…

Military device spillover, the so-called “Tactical to Practical,” usually wends its way into our hands one way or the other… maybe one day we will have a NACHI satellite to have a zap look at a house and download us all the deficiencies into a neat little binder… imagine the HI fees just to tap into THAT sucker!

That not good is? Is good not that? Not is… whatever, I am still working on that Texas lingo.

IR camera cannot see through walls, glass, clothing. These are common myths. They only see energy emitted from, through or behind objects. They detect energy, not specifically heat.

Thanks for the info! :nachi:

I’ve had it wrong all along. :wink:

Nice IR video

While I don’t agree with the terminology in their ad and would never use such personally. I actually agree it is a dangerous ad and potentially detrimental to those of us who provide IR as it will tend to give false information/hope to potential customers, who will not understand that the quotes around “see” mean it doesn’t actually see through the wall as we know and I imagine that they know.

As far as the Kaplan/Homesafe class:
I don’t think it is fair to bash a class you have not taken, whether from Homesafe or Kaplan. I have not taken John’s class or FLIR’s class, and that being the case, would never comment on their content or quality. I happened to take this IR class. I also have a background in IR from my engineering days both in college at Texas A&M and the engineering I did for a few years, so I can attest that the class is pretty sound in IR theory and such.

Just my opinion of course, but this is a publiuc forum and we are discussing a new application of a technology. People will research things online. Bickering amoung education providers with no basis does no good for anyone.

Can you see through glass?

How about very dark glass?

How about clear glass at nite?

What if the wall was made out of dark glass and you had an IR camera?

In short we are talking about the meaning of words here

If I were to go to court I could prove that I can see through walls with an IR camera

Walls means more than one but not all.

Anyone want to go to court with $$ on the table

rlb

From the FLIR-ITC training web page:

"I have seen movies where thermal imaging is used to “see through” walls.
Can this really be done?

** Unfortunately this is pure Hollywood fiction."**

and…

***" longwave infrared energy **will not pass through glass."

Mr Bennett,

Please post some pictures you have taken with your IR camera
that demonstrates it can see through walls or glass.

No play on words, just post the pictures please.

Ok people

What type of material would one make a wall out of that an IR camera could see through??

And then would the statement that IR can see throught walls be correct??

It is all in what the wall is made of and if there is a delta “T” between materials

We can’t see anything in the dark or even if the light is too bright

One must first understand the word “see”

rlb

Infrared energy waves pass through extremely few materials and therefore
the IR camera cannot see through walls. If you made a list of hundreds
of building materials used on walls… none would fit the bill.

Unless you build a wall of the same plastic they use to make plastic
bags at the store. That is one exception.

To be polite… your not making much hay in this field.

Regarding the word ‘see’…

Even if you could use a “one in a thousand” definition of a word,
it would make you look shady to say the least, and plain deceitful
at worst.

We know your not that kind of person… right?

The IR camera sees the surface energy coming from materials
(through emission or reflectance… almost never transmission) and
sometimes the energy from the other side of those materials makes
it through to show it’s image. We do not see through the materials
used in building construction. Let’s be honest with the consumer and
our selves. Setting proper expectations is what protects everyone.

These are IR cameras not x-ray cameras!! The ad is mis-leading and will over all muddy the waters and create false hopes at the consumer end. IE…“Why does your IR camera not see through walls?. The ones Homesafe has does!!”
Problems down the line. Heck maybe one of us should hire them for a scan and then take them to court when there camera cannot ‘see’ through the walls as advertised!!

Homesafe has used that “see thru walls” junk since they first started touting IR with a shoulder mounted B&W imager tied to a VCR. When I saw that ITA was working with them I called Richard Whitsett, the Dallas ITA lead instructor and grilled him about it a bit especially the “see thru walls” stuff. He said that ITA was trying to talk Homesafe out of using that phrase, I guess they didn’t listen. The camera in the ad is a good one and Richard says that the course content is good. FWIW.

John

Point well taken

Here is the problem - It is the wall. As we all know very few are “see through” material but lawyer only needs one to make the case

Might be time to get the some client grade educational material out and about

rlb

[/quote]
Even if you could use a “one in a thousand” definition of a word,
it would make you look shady to say the least, and plain deceitful
at worst.

The IR camera sees the surface energy coming from materials
(through emission or reflectance… almost never transmission) and
sometimes the energy from the other side of those materials makes
it through to show it’s image. We do not see through the materials
used in building construction. Let’s be honest with the consumer and
our selves. Setting proper expectations is what protects everyone.
[/quote]

John is right. This back and forth is not profitable. To say it “sees through walls” (plural) is silly at best, and in my opinion deceitful. I don’t see an asterisk with a disclaimer…

None of us wants to be associated with something that even has the appearance of deceit or wrong or silly. I think professionalism shuold reign. To say the ad writers are safe if a “lawyer” can show “one wall in court” is the same - the ad says the device sees through walls - clients hear or see that and think what you and I think they think. And in court, with a really ticked off client, only ONE wall that is not see through would likely be enough. “I have a problem with my concrete block wall and the ad says they can see through it… well, they couldn’t!”

Once on an IR inspection my client asked if I could see through the poured concrete wall into the under area of the garage (where a problem was originating) and I simply said, “No.”

I’m looking forward to your class, John.

OK, let’s cut the crap!

As I have posted numerous times there is all kinds of bogus crap on the Internet implying that we have Superman vision! There are all kinds of thermal scans posted on the Internet that don’t show anything. Interpretations of the thermal scans are totally bogus.

In order to see through a wall it must be highly transmissive. One of the primary things that causes your camera to be so expensive is the lens. Very few materials allow sufficient transmittance to adequately “see” through the object and still observed the anomaly. So, if you’re making your wall out of a plastic bag, I guess you can say you can see through the wall!

There is enough bull crap going around that screws up everybody’s perception on this infrared stuff without having to play games with words. Leave it to the lawyers.

As John posted, show us some pictures and cut the crap with the wording.

People trying to use thermography have a big enough problem trying to understand that if you have a sheet rock wall, you are not measuring the gypsum, you are not measuring the paper, you’re not measuring the primer, you are measuring the painted surface or anything on the painted surface. If you have a film of oil on an object, you must use the emissivity sitting of the oil not the object. So let’s quit trying to make this more complicated and screwed up than it already is!

Quit playing lawyer. It’s not a problem, It’s a waste of time to try to figure out what a lawyer might do in court. All they’re trying to do is get you flustered so you screw up.

You can “detect” things in the wall, you can’t see them. Besides, if you want to get technical, you’re not seeing anything. Digital Cameras record reflected visible light. Infrared cameras create a graphical representation of the emitted energy. It is not “visible light” which is required in the definition of “seeing”.

**

[/FONT]**

If you’re going to falsely claim (to the public) that you can actually see through walls, you might as well use my logo…

And I’d love to see the awesome images of the IR camera that is looking through the walls.