Service Panel Question...

Originally Posted By: bgriffin
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At what point would a 125A panel be considered overloaded (as in too many breakers)?


Thanks


Originally Posted By: tallen
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Is there more breakers than spaces for them?


Are you adding up the ratings of the breakers and it is over 125 ?



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: bgriffin
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This is what’s there…


30A Pool
30A Clothes Dryer
50A A/C
10 15A
4 20A

The panel is full. The pool was an add on. It just seems like a lot considering that the pool, dryer and AC could all be on at the same time. Not to mention the rest of teh stuff in the house.


Originally Posted By: tallen
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How many Sq. feet is the house?


Were they any other concerns with the panel?



I have put the past behind me,


where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.


www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: bgriffin
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2100sf home. 5 years old. No concerns.


Just curious myself. I'd like to know at what point a service panel is considered a candidate for upgrading.


Originally Posted By: tallen
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I think I would say something like.


The house is purported to be 2100 square feet, and a 125 amp panel is possibly to small, and may not be adequate to meet the demands of the household and the pool added after construction. Therefore, you may wish to have a Licensed and qualified electrician render a second opinion or perform load calculations to determine if the service is adequate.


I may be jumping the gun though. I would have to look up residential load calculations which I have not done for years. After all we are not code inspectors.
Wait for Joe or Jerry or Bob to chime in they are the electrical gurus.


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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I agree with Todd’s reply and would check to see if a permit was issued. The examples in the back of the NEC can be helpful to explain the loads and calculations for the type of service you describe.


The Home Inspector should recommend contacting the inspector and electrician for further evaluation.


--
Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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I agree, no load calculation for me. Been too long (and there is no need to, if it needs to be done, recommend having a qualified and licensed electrician do it).


But 125 amp on a 2100 sf house?

150 amp is not much more costly, and 200 amp is not that much more costly than 150 amp. (I.e., excepting real cost cutting efforts, there is not reason to not have 150 amp or 200 amp on a house of any size.

Back when everything was gas (and in those areas were everything still is gas), 100 amp handled everything. But it did not leave any room for anything else.

I like this section of the NEC, read it carefully and grasp what it is saying.

90.1 Purpose.
- (B) Adequacy. This Code contains provisions that are considered necessary for safety. Compliance therewith and proper maintenance will result in an installation that is essentially free from hazard but not necessarily efficient, convenient, or adequate for good service or future expansion of electrical use.
- - FPN: Hazards often occur because of overloading of wiring systems by methods or usage not in conformity with this Code. This occurs because initial wiring did not provide for increases in the use of electricity. An initial adequate installation and reasonable provisions for system changes will provide for future increases in the use of electricity.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: bgriffin
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Thanks guys. That was my feeling too.


It seems all of the homes in this area are only 125A. I've even seen new 3000sf homes with only 125A service. It seems like that's the wrong place to try and save a couple of bucks.

How do you tell the buyer that the service may be inadequate when it's common practice and all their neighbors have the same problem?

Thanks alot,

Bud


Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Call up the local building department and ask for the electrical inspector. Ask about the issue and the dates of the installation, within the last 5 years, and tell him where you are coming from. I will be interested in hearing about any replies.



Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant


www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

Originally Posted By: jpeck
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bgriffin wrote:
How do you tell the buyer that the service may be inadequate when it's common practice and all their neighbors have the same problem?


Me to my client "the service may be inadequate" even though "it's common practice and all" your "neighbors have the same problem".

You did an excellent job of telling us, now just tell your client.


--
Jerry Peck
South Florida

Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Quote:
This is what's there...

30A Pool
30A Clothes Dryer
50A A/C
10 15A
4 20A


What I don't see is a breaker for the water heater or the range, so I will assume (!) that they were gas.
I would guess that it was ok, but in my report, I would recommend that a load calculation be done.

It was one of the Bobs (Knuaff or one of the others) that agreed with me that all homes should just start out with 200 amp service.
That should be plenty for a majority of homes, except those that Jerry inspects! ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif) ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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OK here I go again.


How is a load calculation within the scope of a visual inspection?

"At what point would a 125A panel be considered overloaded "

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: evandeven
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Quote:
OK here I go again.

How is a load calculation within the scope of a visual inspection?

"At what point would a 125A panel be considered overloaded "

Mike P.


Mike,
It isn't. But, the Sops don't say you can't if you know how. If a home inspector knew how to do a load calculation, they could.

Myself, it is out of the scope of what I do and therefore if I think that there is a possibility that the service is inadequate, I would make mention of it.


--
Eric Van De Ven
Owner/Inspector
Magnum Inspections Inc.
I get paid to be suspicious when there is nothing to be suspicious about!
www.magnuminspections.com

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Eric


If it is outside of your scope how could you guess that it in inadequate?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: tallen
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If a HI was at say a 2200 sq.ft home built in 1955 and it has a 125 amp service.Now the HI knows the house has been updated with a nice zoned a/c system and there is a Jacuzzi on the back patio. Would it be better to


A. Report to client that the service may be undersized due to the additions and /or current practices. Therefore, they might wish to seek further evaluation by a blah blah,,,

or

B. Report every thing looks ok.. Only because this particular HI does not know how to do load calc.. I don't think so ![icon_biggrin.gif](upload://iKNGSw3qcRIEmXySa8gItY6Gczg.gif)


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: Mike Parks
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Todd


Good question. I am not sure that I can give you the correct answer.

I know that no one should assume but if it has been installed and/or approved by professionals, why would you want to muddy the waters?

Mike P.


Originally Posted By: ekartal
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bgriffin wrote:
This is what's there...

30A Pool
30A Clothes Dryer
50A A/C
10 15A
4 20A


I'm confused. Doesn't the above information clearly indicate that the 125A rated panel is overloaded? ![icon_confused.gif](upload://qv5zppiN69qCk2Y6JzaFYhrff8S.gif)

Erol Kartal


Originally Posted By: tallen
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Just cuz a pro did it don’t mean it’s correct.


I would imagine you have seen lot's of licensed contractor work that was sub par and maybe even down right dangerous.
Do you ignore it?

If you see something that looks wrong ,but you can't prove it yourself. Only because your not a licensed Roofer,Arborist,HVAC tech,Geologist etc. You don't report anything about it?


--
I have put the past behind me,
where , however, it now sits, making rude remarks.

www.whiteglovehomeinspections.net

30 Oct 2003-- 29 Nov2005

Originally Posted By: ekartal
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Thanks Todd icon_smile.gif But isn’t the above example a problem simply because the total breakers exceed panel rating? I don’t understand why it’s a load calculation issue. 200A upgrade seems to be simple solution. I can tell I’m missing something here. Let me have it guys!!


Erol Kartal