Six Wire Service

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Originally Posted By: rpalac
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It is okay to remark a factory white conductor if aplicable. Under the circumstances this is far from the only instalation that I have seen where the feeds were factory white or grey.


There is nothing against code to feed equipment with a mast head. On high voltage units it is definately not oncommon. I have installed a simular type of mast head for a 480volt compressor at the Philadelphia gas works. believe me you don't get around the code there.

Bob P.

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
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rpalac wrote:

There is nothing against code to feed equipment with a mast head.

And what clearances above the roof do you have to meet? And that is on an industrial installation with (theoretically) access only by qualified persons, right?

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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Yeah…I’d say he’s wayyyy under the 8’ requirement!

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Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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You may re-identify a white conductor that is part of cable or cord.


You may re-identify a colored conductor to white.

But it is against the NEC to remark a white conductor to any other color if it is in a raceway, there are no exceptions to that.

Quote:

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes. (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C): (1)A conductor with continuous white or gray covering (2)A conductor with three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation (3)A marking of white or gray color at the termination

That part tell us white must be used as the grounded conductor.

Quote:

200.7(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).

That section told us that using white for an ungrounded conductor is only allowed as shown by 1 through 3

Quote:

200.7(C) (1)If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. (2)Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible. (3)Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

Sorry guys that mast head has six neutrals in it. 

I got one past Jerry, WOW.  I think that is a first.

Now if that mast head is to feed roof units we have a problem.

Quote:

225.19 Clearances from Buildings for Conductors of Not Over 600 Volts, Nominal. (A) Above Roofs. Overhead spans of open conductors and open multiconductor cables shall have a vertical clearance of not less than 2.5 m (8 ft) above the roof surface. The vertical clearance above the roof level shall be maintained for a distance not less than 900 mm (3 ft) in all directions from the edge of the roof.

As it is in the picture it is unusable as far as I can tell.

Jeff please let us know the outcome.

Bob

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Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

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Originally Posted By: jtedesco
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Please see 310.12© Ungrounded Conductor Identification.


See also:

Quote:

310.8(D) Locations Exposed to Direct Sunlight. Insulated conductors and cables used where exposed to direct rays of the sun shall be of a type listed for sunlight resistance or listed and marked ?sunlight resistant.?

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Joe Tedesco, NEC Consultant

www.nachi.org/tedescobook.htm

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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jpeck wrote:

Why can't you re-identify white? Code says they MUST be permanently re-identified by painting or some other approved means, anyone know of any paint approved to be put on electrical conductor insulation?

Bob Badger wrote:

You may re-identify a white conductor that is part of cable or cord. You may re-identify a colored conductor to white. But it is against the NEC to remark a white conductor to any other color if it is in a raceway, there are no exceptions to that.

But not because it "is in a raceway", but because it "is not" part of a cable assembly.

Bob Badger wrote:

Sorry guys that mast head has six neutrals in it.  I got one past Jerry, WOW. 

Yep, I completely missed that one. Got to remember: white can be re-identified "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ... "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ...

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: jpope
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Quote:

As part of a cable assembly

What exactly does that mean? Like. . . multiwire cable, already wrapped?

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Jeff Pope
JPI Home Inspection Service
"At JPI, we'll help you look better"
(661) 212-0738

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Yes.


NM cable is an example.

Comes manufactured as an assembly, which is why the white is allowed to be re-identified.

Individual conductors need to be pulled in being the correct color - don't pull in white, then expect to be able to say 'no, that one is black'. You can go the other way, pull in all black (for larger than #6 AWG) and then identify the black to white with tape.

B) Sizes Larger Than 6 AWG. An insulated grounded conductor larger than 6 AWG shall be identified either by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length or at the time of installation by a distinctive white marking at its terminations. This marking shall encircle the conductor or insulation.

But not conductors #6 AWG and smaller.

(A) Sizes 6 AWG or Smaller. An insulated grounded conductor of 6 AWG or smaller shall be identified by a continuous white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation along its entire length. Wires that have their outer covering finished to show a white or gray color but have colored tracer threads in the braid identifying the source of manufacture shall be considered as meeting the provisions of this section. Insulated grounded conductors shall also be permitted to be identified as follows:
(1) The grounded conductor of a mineral-insulated, metal-sheathed cable shall be identified at the time of installation by distinctive marking at its terminations.
(2) A single-conductor, sunlight-resistant, outdoor-rated cable used as a grounded conductor in photovoltaic power systems as permitted by 690.31 shall be identified at the time of installation by distinctive white marking at all terminations.
(3) Fixture wire shall comply with the requirements for grounded conductor identification as specified in 402.8
(4) For aerial cable, the identification shall be as above, or by means of a ridge located on the exterior of the cable so as to identify it.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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jpeck wrote:

Got to remember: white can be re-identified "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ... "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ... 

Don't forget white can be re-identified in flexible cords too.


It is a confusing code sometimes.

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Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Bob Badger wrote:

jpeck wrote: Got to remember: white can be re-identified "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ... "as part of a cable assembly ONLY" ...  Don't forget white can be re-identified in flexible cords too.

They can be?

Quote:

It is a confusing code sometimes.

Yes it is. See below.

(C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(1) If part of a cable assembly and where the insulation is permanently reidentified to indicate its use as an ungrounded conductor, by painting or other effective means at its termination, and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(2) Where a cable assembly contains an insulated conductor for single-pole, 3-way or 4-way switch loops and the conductor with white or gray insulation or a marking of three continuous white stripes is used for the supply to the switch but not as a return conductor from the switch to the switched outlet. In these applications, the conductor with white or gray insulation or with three continuous white stripes shall be permanently reidentified to indicate its use by painting or other effective means at its terminations and at each location where the conductor is visible and accessible.
(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
FPN: The color gray may have been used in the past as an ungrounded conductor. Care should be taken when working on existing systems.

Bob, I don't see it under flexible cords. Am I missing it? Is it in another code section? I am always wanting to learn more.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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In the case of flexible cords we can use the white as an ungrounded conductor without re-identifying it but of course we can if we want to.


Truthfully I very rarely re-identify cords, no room at the cord cap end and usually self explanatory at the utilization equipment.

Quote:

This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

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Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Bob Badger wrote:

In the case of flexible cords we can use the white as an ungrounded conductor without re-identifying it but of course we can if we want to.

You can? I'm game. Where does it say that?

200.6 Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors.
C) Flexible Cords. An insulated conductor that is intended for use as a grounded conductor, where contained within a flexible cord, shall be identified by a white or gray outer finish or by three continuous white stripes on other than green insulation or by methods permitted by 400.22.

400.22 Grounded-Conductor Identification.
One conductor of flexible cords that is intended to be used as a grounded circuit conductor shall have a continuous marker that readily distinguishes it from the other conductor or conductors. The identification shall consist of one of the methods indicated in 400.22(A) through (F).
(A) Colored Braid. A braid finished to show a white or gray color and the braid on the other conductor or conductors finished to show a readily distinguishable solid color or colors.
(B) Tracer in Braid. A tracer in a braid of any color contrasting with that of the braid and no tracer in the braid of the other conductor or conductors. No tracer shall be used in the braid of any conductor of a flexible cord that contains a conductor having a braid finished to show white or gray.
Exception: In the case of Types C and PD and cords having the braids on the individual conductors finished to show white or gray. In such cords, the identifying marker shall be permitted to consist of the solid white or gray finish on one conductor, provided there is a colored tracer in the braid of each other conductor.
(C) Colored Insulation. A white or gray insulation on one conductor and insulation of a readily distinguishable color or colors on the other conductor or conductors for cords having no braids on the individual conductors.
For jacketed cords furnished with appliances, one conductor having its insulation colored light blue, with the other conductors having their insulation of a readily distinguishable color other than white or gray.
Exception: Cords that have insulation on the individual conductors integral with the jacket.
The insulation shall be permitted to be covered with an outer finish to provide the desired color.
(D) Colored Separator. A white or gray separator on one conductor and a separator of a readily distinguishable solid color on the other conductor or conductors of cords having insulation on the individual conductors integral with the jacket.
(E) Tinned Conductors. One conductor having the individual strands tinned and the other conductor or conductors having the individual strands untinned for cords having insulation on the individual conductors integral with the jacket.
(F) Surface Marking. One or more stripes, ridges, or grooves located on the exterior of the cord so as to identify one conductor for cords having insulation on the individual conductors integral with the jacket.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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jpeck wrote:

Bob Badger wrote: In the case of flexible cords we can use the white as an ungrounded conductor without re-identifying it but of course we can if we want to. You can? I'm game. Where does it say that?

So your position is I may not use the white in a flexible cord as an ungrounded conductor?

If I need to put a cord on a 240 toaster you believe I need to buy a cord with Green, White, Black and Red then just abandon the white if I do not need it. 

Quote:

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes. (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C): (C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through(3). (3)Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.

The only difference is that cable assembles require re-identification while flexible cords do not require re-identification.

Flexible cords would not be in the list under unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C) if it was not permitted.

The references to article 400 do not change the use of the white wire.

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Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.

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Bob Badger wrote:

If I need to put a cord on a 240 toaster ... The only difference is that cable assembles require re-identification while flexible cords do not require re-identification. Flexible cords would not be in the list under unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C) if it was not permitted.

200.7(B)? You are using (B) in reference to a 240 volt flexible cord?

200.7
(B) Circuits of Less Than 50 Volts.

Quote:

The references to article 400 do not change the use of the white wire.

200.7
C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of insulation that is white or gray or that has three continuous white stripes for other than a grounded conductor for circuits of 50 volts or more shall be permitted only as in (1) through (3).
(Jerry's comment: remember, the above is for white being used as OTHER THAN as a grounded conductor in a flexible cord.)
(3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white or gray outer finish or three continuous white stripes or by any other means permitted by 400.22, is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7. This shall apply to flexible cords connected to outlets whether or not the outlet is supplied by a circuit that has a grounded conductor.
(Jerry's comment: 400.22 states the "or by other means" the *white* conductor is identified as a grounded conductor when not *white*.)
(Jerry's comment: 400.7 states the "uses permitted" for flexible cords.)

400.22 Grounded-Conductor Identification.
One conductor of flexible cords that is intended to be used as a grounded circuit conductor shall have a continuous marker that readily distinguishes it from the other conductor or conductors. The identification shall consist of one of the methods indicated in 400.22(A) through (F).
(A through F just give ways to identify *white* as being a grounded conductor when not *white*)

400.7 Uses Permitted.
(Lists permitted uses.)

Now, if I put them together right, I get this.

200.7 Use of Insulation of a White or Gray Color or with Three Continuous White Stripes.
- (A) General. The following shall be used only for the grounded circuit conductor, unless otherwise permitted in 200.7(B) and (C):
- - C) Circuits of 50 Volts or More. The use of ... white ... for other than a grounded conductor ... shall be permitted only as in ... (3).
- - - (3) Where a flexible cord, having one conductor identified by a white ... , is used for connecting an appliance or equipment permitted by 400.7.

I.e., white can only be used for the grounded circuit conductor, unless, for circuits of 50 volts or more, in a flexible cord, when used for connecting an appliance listed in 400.7.

End result: White does not need to be re-identified and can be used as other than the grounded conductor.
____________

Now, where were we?

Oh, right.

Bob Badger wrote:
In the case of flexible cords we can use the white as an ungrounded conductor without re-identifying it but of course we can if we want to.

Jerry Peck asked: You can? I'm game. Where does it say that?

It says that in the above, as I just showed. You were right, only I had to answer my own question.

Bob Badger wrote:

The references to article 400 do not change the use of the white wire.

Actually, the reference to Article 400 does allow the change of the use of the white wire. From a grounded conductor to a "use as other than a grounded conductor". 

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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One strange thing I noticed there… The markings on one of the wires says “Value Line”… has anyone else heard of a wire mfr bearing this name? Around here in So Calif, the main guys are Circle/Cerro, Essex, BiccGeneral, CME, Encore, AIW/Electricord for things like feeders


I'm getting a feeling those wires are not for electrical purposes..


-Randy

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"Prices subject to change with customers additude"

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Originally Posted By: Bob Badger
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Jerry do you look at your posts once they are up, I think your making the easy complicated.


2000 words to say the same thing I do in 20 words. 

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Bob (AKA iwire)
ECN Discussion Forums
Mike Holt Code Forum

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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You guys are making this way too complicated.


Either those cables are not for power, or there will probably be some changes once the electrical inspector gets there.

Just my 2-nickels ... 

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Bob Badger wrote:

Jerry do you look at your posts once they are up, I think your making the easy complicated.  2000 words to say the same thing I do in 20 words. 

Bob,

I posted the lineage of the references to show the why and how come.

Sure, I could have said "Yep, you be right on that.", but there are others who may have wanted to know why? Then again, maybe not.

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Jerry Peck
South Florida

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Originally Posted By: Randy Flockton
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Duh me… I just noticed… Look at the 2nd pic…


"Value Line RG-6"


Its coaxial cable

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"Prices subject to change with customers additude"

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Originally Posted By: jpeck
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Randy,


It looks like Value Line RG 2/0 to me. I could not figure out what "RG" meant in relation to 2/0, still can't. It still looks like "2/0" after the "RG".

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Jerry Peck
South Florida