# Smart Meters tripping AFCI's **URL:** \ **Category:** Texas/TPREIA Home Inspectors\ **Created:** [October 22, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603 "2011-10-22T02:56:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jhime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@jhime](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jhime)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/1 "2011-10-22T02:56:19Z")
Smart meters are now being installed in my area. Smart meters are starting to trip AFCI’s as reported by 2 electricians I know and work with so far. As you know, an arc fault breaker looks at an electrical sign wave and figures out what’s right and what’s not. When it “see’s” the signature of an arc, it trips. RF ( radio frequency) interference has nearly the same electrical signature as an electrical arc. Guess how the new smart meters talk to the home office? (radio frequency) Where the electrical panel is located next to the smart meter problems have developed according to my bubba electricians. This is NOT a builders problem. It is a utility company problem. A builder has no control over a utility company. Need to be sure the AFCI is tripping due to smart meter and not from electrical work. This can be done by requesting the utility company switch back to a mechanical meter. What can someone do? Write your congressmen and ask that the utility companies go back to the drawing board. (??) It is my understanding that PG&E in Ca has already been told by court order to switch back to mechanical meters when someone has problems. More fun to come I am sure. (No effective RF shield is available that won’t also block the RF signal back to “big brother”.) If you inspect homes then this info may be of benefit to your master macro file. ---
**Author:** ![belliott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/belliott/32/57038_2.png) [@belliott](https://forum.nachi.org/u/belliott)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 6:11am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/2 "2011-10-22T06:11:23Z")
Interesting news that will not directly effect a Inspection but good to know. ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:50pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/3 "2011-10-22T12:50:00Z")
> [@belliott](#): > > Interesting news that will not directly effect a Inspection but good to know. untrue last man standing is generally blamed whether factual or not case 1 "you inspected my home back in (insert a date within the past few years) and xyz doesn’t work anymore. we want it fixed, NOW, who is your insurer?" case 2 “oh, don’t bother the sellers for not disclosing the inspector should have made you aware of this call him they all have to carry insurance.” ---
**Author:** ![nkienitz](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/nkienitz/32/59245_2.png) [@nkienitz](https://forum.nachi.org/u/nkienitz)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 12:53pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/4 "2011-10-22T12:53:42Z")
> [@badair](#): > > untrue > last man standing is generally blamed whether factual or not > > case 1 > "you inspected my home back in (insert a date within the past few years) and xyz doesn’t work anymore. > > we want it fixed, NOW, who is your insurer?" > > case 2 > “oh, don’t bother the sellers for not disclosing the inspector should have made you aware of this call him they all have to carry insurance.” Barry - You hit the nail straight on with this potential. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 1:12pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/5 "2011-10-22T13:12:27Z")
btw, BIG KUDOs to Jim Hime for the info! ---
**Author:** ![dandersen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/dandersen/32/59398_2.png) [@dandersen](https://forum.nachi.org/u/dandersen)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:40pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/6 "2011-10-22T14:40:11Z")
Thanks for the information! Finally, something other than a political update! ---
**Author:** ![rcooke](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rcooke/32/57038_2.png) [@rcooke](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rcooke)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 2:43pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/7 "2011-10-22T14:43:08Z")
Thanks for this info . We have had smart meters for some time in Canada . I will be on the lookout to see if this is happening here . ---
**Author:** ![belliott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/belliott/32/57038_2.png) [@belliott](https://forum.nachi.org/u/belliott)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 3:38pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/8 "2011-10-22T15:38:03Z")
> [@badair](#): > > untrue > last man standing is generally blamed whether factual or not > > case 1 > "you inspected my home back in (insert a date within the past few years) and xyz doesn’t work anymore. > > we want it fixed, NOW, who is your insurer?" > > case 2 > “oh, don’t bother the sellers for not disclosing the inspector should have made you aware of this call him they all have to carry insurance.” AH, you are getting all hyped Barry.😉 The fix comes from the POCO and if true it is well out of our hands. Good news is it causes tripping rather than prevents it.🙂 Other good news is it provides free testing automatically. ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 4:06pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/9 "2011-10-22T16:06:50Z")
> [@belliott](#): > > AH, you are getting all hyped Barry.😉 > > The fix comes from the POCO and if true it is well out of our hands. > Good news is it causes tripping rather than prevents it.🙂 > > Other good news is it provides free testing automatically. wadr, please post facts/links to back your statements, some here actually read and give merit to what you type thanx to a trusted factual source, there is differing info from ([http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/electrical/newsletters/2009\_IAEI.pdf](http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/electrical/newsletters/2009_IAEI.pdf)) that does not make it a poco problem and sends documented factual trips and complaints back to the AFCI mfr. ---
**Author:** ![jhime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@jhime](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jhime)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 8:44pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/10 "2011-10-22T20:44:45Z")
BTW - I don’t do political updates. I get enough spam mail already. This is verification of 5 homes on the same street that are 4 years old (same builder) that had the dial meters changed out to to the smart meters over the last week and all heck is breaking loose. In my area (Galveston County) they are changing out meters to smart meters. There is also a few folks that are fighting smart meters due to privacy issues. On new home inspection today I warned my client about his panel located next to the dial meter and soon they will be in his neighborhood to change his meter to smart. Of course the next door neighbor who closed yesterday and was moving in over-heard me and had some idiotic idea of RF shielding to which I blew him off and escaped leaving my client with his new neighbor (ha-ha). Anyway this is what I drafted for my reports until I get a copy of the Eaton letter (see below) - **"Information: Smart Meters May Trip AFCI’s** - where smart meters are installed or may be installed in the future next to the electrical service panel by your utility company the RF (radio frequency) signal from the smart meter has nearly the same electrical signature as an electrical arc which may exacerbate a potential to trip the AFCI breaker(s) and cut power to the circuit(s). This doesn’t happen with the mechanical dial type utility meters. If the tripping is confimed by your licensed electrician after a smart meter is installed then contact your utility company for resolution. There is no way to inspect or test for this condition via a limited visual inspection as there is no testing equipment." Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) agrees on the smart meter tripping of AFCI’s. They are preparing a letter. When my electrician gets it he will forward to me and I will try to post. I’m not that good at posting but will figure something out. My immediate mail address list gets mail quicker than a forum so if I forget please remind me. I’ve been busy and forums can’t be at the top of my daily to-do list. Whatever anyone wants to think your phone will probably ring once the smart meter tips afci’s (with meter next to the panel). It’s not an H.I.'s fault but you should let your client know what’s going on. (Everyone knows an H.I. is all-knowing and can leap buildings in a single bound and see through walls.) This is an easy fix. Either don’t install smart meters or change the RF (radio frequency) signal of the meter. ---
**Author:** ![belliott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/belliott/32/57038_2.png) [@belliott](https://forum.nachi.org/u/belliott)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2011, 10:49pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/11 "2011-10-22T22:49:00Z")
> [@badair](#): > > wadr, please post facts/links to back your statements, some here actually read and give merit to what you type > > thanx to a trusted factual source, there is differing info from > ([http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/electrical/newsletters/2009\_IAEI.pdf](http://www.ul.com/global/documents/offerings/perspectives/regulators/electrical/newsletters/2009_IAEI.pdf)) that does not make it a poco problem and sends documented factual trips and complaints back to the AFCI mfr. Barry I said …(over worry) where should I put a link from my original thought process ? 🙂 You provided a link to a large PDF that said blah…blah…blah…and blah. OK, cutting out the fat for you this is what I get below… Underwriters Laboratories held meetings with Electrical Inspectors during the 2009 IAEI Section Meetings. Historically, these meetings have provided for an open exchange between the electrical inspection community and UL regarding any subject of interest to authorities. UL acknowledges the importance of this feedback. The electrical inspector is an integral part of the UL information loop. _**It is the inspector, who during the examination of the final installation, can judge under field conditions, the adequacy of the constructions and markings for proper installation.**_ It is the inspector who can pass this installation information to UL for use in modifying product safety requirements. **Now I ask exactly what you will do to determine the proper function during a regular Home Inspection ?** ,where it falls under our SOP and how the above even hints at it being part of a Home Inspectors Due diligence not to mention how a UL PDF has anything to do with me or why in the heck I would even be aware of such a thing without you searching for it and pasting it here. Once again this is a POCO issue and not a Home Inspection issue. Otherwise next time a GE Dishwasher heating element fails and causes recall it will also be your fault.🙂 Gosh Barry I was pulling you chain (sorta) but when I read this on my EVO while chucking down a McRib after an Inspection I could not wait to get home and respond. Sorry I had to much sauce on my fingers to type at the time. ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 11:19am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/12 "2011-10-23T11:19:53Z")
> [@belliott](#): > > Barry I said …(over worry) where should I put a link from my original thought process ? 🙂 > > You provided a link to a large PDF that said blah…blah…blah…and blah. > > OK, cutting out the fat for you this is what I get below… > > Underwriters Laboratories held meetings with Electrical Inspectors during the > 2009 IAEI Section Meetings. Historically, these meetings have provided for an > open exchange between the electrical inspection community and UL regarding > any subject of interest to authorities. > UL acknowledges the importance of this feedback. The electrical inspector is > an integral part of the UL information loop. _**It is the inspector, who during the > examination of the final installation, can judge under field conditions, the > adequacy of the constructions and markings for proper installation.**_ It is the > inspector who can pass this installation information to UL for use in modifying > product safety requirements. > > **Now I ask exactly what you will do to determine the proper function during a regular Home Inspection ?** same as always test the AFCIs and associated components ,where it falls under our SOP TREC sop here, not IL or nachi and going beyond is allowed by all that i’m aware of and how the above even hints at it being part of a Home Inspectors Due diligence not to mention how a UL PDF has anything to do with me or why in the heck I would even be aware of such a thing without you searching for it and pasting it here. if it’s a non-issue for you so be it > > Once again this is a POCO issue and not a Home Inspection issue. not correct if you read the specific section of the pdf that addressed the subject deficiency > > Otherwise next time a GE Dishwasher heating element fails and causes recall it will also be your fault.🙂 > > Gosh Barry I was pulling you chain (sorta) but when I read this on my EVO while chucking down a McRib after an Inspection I could not wait to get home and respond. > Sorry I had to much sauce on my fingers to type at the time. hope you were able to keep that thing down and had a belated HBD! thanks for washing up before replying my screen appreciates it ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/13 "2011-10-23T11:44:01Z")
> [@belliott](#): > > Barry I said …(over worry) where should I put a link from my original thought process ? 🙂 > > You provided a link to a large PDF that said blah…blah…blah…and blah. > > OK, cutting out the fat for you this is what I get below… > > Underwriters Laboratories held meetings with Electrical Inspectors during the > 2009 IAEI Section Meetings. Historically, these meetings have provided for an > open exchange between the electrical inspection community and UL regarding > any subject of interest to authorities. > UL acknowledges the importance of this feedback. The electrical inspector is > an integral part of the UL information loop. _**It is the inspector, who during the > examination of the final installation, can judge under field conditions, the > adequacy of the constructions and markings for proper installation.**_ It is the > inspector who can pass this installation information to UL for use in modifying > product safety requirements. > > **Now I ask exactly what you will do to determine the proper function during a regular Home Inspection ?** same as always the above, some of us do phase construction inspections and find misinstallations, test the AFCIs and associated components ,where it falls under our SOP TREC sop here, not IL or nachi and going beyond is allowed by all that i’m aware of and how the above even hints at it being part of a Home Inspectors Due diligence not to mention how a UL PDF has anything to do with me or why in the heck I would even be aware of such a thing without you searching for it and pasting it here. if it’s a non-issue for you so be it > > Once again this is a POCO issue and not a Home Inspection issue. not correct if you read the specific section of the pdf that addressed the subject deficiency > > Otherwise next time a GE Dishwasher heating element fails and causes recall it will also be your fault.🙂 > > Gosh Barry I was pulling you chain (sorta) but when I read this on my EVO while chucking down a McRib after an Inspection I could not wait to get home and respond. > Sorry I had to much sauce on my fingers to type at the time. hope you were able to keep that thing down and had a belated HBD! thanks for washing up before replying my screen appreciates it for me, becoming aware of install problems, localized or not and doing some research to be armed if and when it becomes an issue is a part of what this job is about better for me to investigate and be prepared with a clear factual response for a report or conversation more questions are being asked by myself and others…happy trails ---
**Author:** ![badair](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/badair/32/166699_2.png) [@badair](https://forum.nachi.org/u/badair)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 11:55am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/14 "2011-10-23T11:55:21Z")
> [@belliott](#): > > Barry I said …(over worry) where should I put a link from my original thought process ? 🙂 > > You provided a link to a large PDF that said blah…blah…blah…and blah. > > OK, cutting out the fat for you this is what I get below… > > Underwriters Laboratories held meetings with Electrical Inspectors during the > 2009 IAEI Section Meetings. Historically, these meetings have provided for an > open exchange between the electrical inspection community and UL regarding > any subject of interest to authorities. > UL acknowledges the importance of this feedback. The electrical inspector is > an integral part of the UL information loop. _**It is the inspector, who during the > examination of the final installation, can judge under field conditions, the > adequacy of the constructions and markings for proper installation.**_ It is the > inspector who can pass this installation information to UL for use in modifying > product safety requirements. > > **Now I ask exactly what you will do to determine the proper function during a regular Home Inspection ?** same as always the above, some of us do phase construction inspections and find incorrect installations, test the AFCIs and associated components ,where it falls under our SOP TREC sop here, not IL or nachi and how the above even hints at it being part of a Home Inspectors Due diligence not to mention how a UL PDF has anything to do with me or why in the heck I would even be aware of such a thing without you searching for it and pasting it here. if it’s a non-issue for you so be it > > Once again this is a POCO issue and not a Home Inspection issue. not correct if you read the specific section of the UL pdf that addressed the issue and what one should do for resolution > > Otherwise next time a GE Dishwasher heating element fails and causes recall it will also be your fault.🙂 > > Gosh Barry I was pulling you chain (sorta) but when I read this on my EVO while chucking down a McRib after an Inspection I could not wait to get home and respond. > Sorry I had to much sauce on my fingers to type at the time. thanks for washing up before replying my screen appreciates it hope you were able to keep that thing down belated HBD! for me, becoming aware of install problems, localized or not and doing some research to be aware and armed if and when it becomes an issue is a part of what this job is about better for me to investigate and be prepared with a clear factual response for a report or conversation more questions are being asked by myself and others…happy trails ---
**Author:** ![wwilson3](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/wwilson3/32/58197_2.png) [@wwilson3](https://forum.nachi.org/u/wwilson3)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 12:10pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/15 "2011-10-23T12:10:41Z")
Keep us updated Jim , thanks for the info. ---
**Author:** ![belliott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/belliott/32/57038_2.png) [@belliott](https://forum.nachi.org/u/belliott)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 6:28pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/16 "2011-10-23T18:28:54Z")
Thanks Barry…🙂 Around here I test AFCI with the test button at the panel and have no way to test RF signals from a smart meter. The one smart meter I did run into may have been causing issues with an A/C unit so I will try and find the report later as it ties in possibly. ---
**Author:** ![wmisegades](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wmisegades](https://forum.nachi.org/u/wmisegades)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2011, 8:15pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/17 "2011-10-23T20:15:25Z")
> [@jhime](#): > > Anyway this is what I drafted for my reports until I get a copy of the Eaton letter (see below) - > > **"Information: Smart Meters May Trip AFCI’s** - where smart meters are installed or may be installed in the future next to the electrical service panel by your utility company the RF (radio frequency) signal from the smart meter has nearly the same electrical signature as an electrical arc which may exacerbate a potential to trip the AFCI breaker(s) and cut power to the circuit(s). This doesn’t happen with the mechanical dial type utility meters. If the tripping is confimed by your licensed electrician after a smart meter is installed then contact your utility company for resolution. There is no way to inspect or test for this condition via a limited visual inspection as there is no testing equipment." Thanks for the info and the write up draft! ---
**Author:** ![jcahill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e5b9ba/32.png) [@jcahill](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jcahill)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2011, 1:50am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/18 "2011-10-30T01:50:13Z")
> [@jhime](#): > > As you know, an arc fault breaker looks at an electrical sign wave and figures out what’s right and what’s not. > > What can someone do? Write your congressmen and ask that the utility companies go back to the drawing board. (??) Why not blame it on the arc fault designers and not the meters? Fact is the arc fault cannot determine what right and what’s not. If its that easy to trick perhaps its bogus? What’s next, a HAM operator tripping the devices? Maybe the answer is simple. Move the meter far enough away from the arc fault device. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jhime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@jhime](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jhime)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:43pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/19 "2011-11-10T20:43:13Z")
Eaton (Cutler-Hammer) had their meeting. My electrician indicated “whatever” they agreed on it will pass through legal first in order to generate a response. Makes sense. Square D rep indicated they are having issues as well. Electricians are staying in constant touch with manufacturers supplying model numbers and face plate data from smart meters. The problem of AFCI tripping is where panel boxes with AFCI’s are located next to/close to the smart meters (side by side). So far no complaints from panels located (within a garage or structure) but the smart meter replacements here started only in the areas (cities) with the panel next to the meter. I am really surprised of how many “Smart Meter” videos have sprung up on You Tube. ---
**Author:** ![jhime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19adc/32.png) [@jhime](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jhime)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/smart-meters-tripping-afcis/63603/20 "2011-11-10T20:58:26Z")
> [@jcahill](#): > > Maybe the answer is simple. Move the meter far enough away from the arc fault device. > 😉 Electrician got involved with a continual AFCI problem house in east Houston with AFCI manufacturer and it was discovered to be the signal from the radio tower in east Houston. (as it was explained to me) Looks like manufacturer reps carry around a radio frequency detector as much as a home inspector may carry a moisture meter.