# Sub panel with 3-wire feed - 240v breakers only **URL:** \ **Category:** Electrical Inspections\ **Created:** [March 19, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323 "2022-03-19T20:40:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![jfrederick](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jfrederick/32/58314_2.png) [@jfrederick](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jfrederick)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/1 "2022-03-19T20:40:40Z")
This was a 3-wire feed to a sub-panel with 240v/double pole breakers only (for a geothermal system). So my question is, since there are no neutrals, it’s not “wrong”, correct? I don’t see how it could be. As long as no one goes and adds anything, there would be no issue, right? Am I missing something? How would you comment on? Just say it should be a 4-wire, even though it’s unnecessary in this situation? BTW, there were two main panels with plenty of room for more circuits if needed. TIA & I appreciate any helpful insight. p.s. the grounds are black due to sulphur water. ![20220319_142835](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/7/6/767c621aeabe7eb4dd373a193c8591d92910d7a5.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![rmeier2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rmeier2/32/59909_2.png) [@rmeier2](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rmeier2)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2022, 9:01pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/2 "2022-03-19T21:01:19Z")
A 240 volt feeder to a sub-panel does not require a neutral if there are no 120 volt circuits. Nothing to report except maybe that in the future this panel can only supply 240 volt, 2 wire circuits. And why they landed the black and red on the breaker on the top right instead of moving the CB to the left is beyond me. ---
**Author:** ![gwells](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/gwells/32/417638_2.png) [@gwells](https://forum.nachi.org/u/gwells)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 4:57pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/3 "2022-03-23T16:57:03Z")
> [@jfrederick](#): > > Just say it should be a 4-wire, even though it’s unnecessary in this situation? Why would you say something like that? That makes no sense. What other unnecessary stuff do you tell people should be there even though it is unnecessary? ---
**Author:** ![jfrederick](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jfrederick/32/58314_2.png) [@jfrederick](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jfrederick)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 5:37pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/4 "2022-03-23T17:37:28Z")
> [@gwells](#): > > Why would you say something like that? That makes no sense. Aren’t panels downstream of the main disconnect supposed to have a 4-wire feed? ---
**Author:** ![dwigger](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/dwigger/32/58670_2.png) [@dwigger](https://forum.nachi.org/u/dwigger)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 6:02pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/5 "2022-03-23T18:02:23Z")
> [@jfrederick](#): > > Aren’t panels downstream of the main disconnect supposed to have a 4-wire feed? > [@rmeier2](#): > > A 240 volt feeder to a sub-panel does not require a neutral if there are no 120 volt circuits. Nothing to report except maybe that in the future this panel can only supply 240 volt, 2 wire circuits. Robert answered your question. ---
**Author:** ![rmeier2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rmeier2/32/59909_2.png) [@rmeier2](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rmeier2)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2022, 8:40pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/6 "2022-03-23T20:40:59Z")
> [@jfrederick](#): > > Aren’t panels downstream of the main disconnect supposed to have a 4-wire feed? No, a neutral wire is not required in the panel feeder if there are no 120 volt branch circuits in the panel. In your photo all of the loads are 1Ø, 240 volts so the neutral is not required. Doesn’t help the guy in the future who wants to use the panel for a 120 volt load but that is a design issue not a code issue. ---
**Author:** ![kmurphy7](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/kmurphy7/32/183249_2.png) [@kmurphy7](https://forum.nachi.org/u/kmurphy7)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 3:11am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/7 "2022-03-31T03:11:00Z")
The grounds are on the neutral bar… What I see wrong here is that the grounds are not connected at the ground screw and the neutral bar is connected to the ground screw? Or is this the ground bar and the neutral bar is removed? ---
**Author:** ![srechkin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/srechkin/32/180448_2.png) [@srechkin](https://forum.nachi.org/u/srechkin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 4:10am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/8 "2022-03-31T04:10:24Z")
Kaitlan, please re-read the thread carefully, there is no neutral supplied to this 240v-only panel. ---
**Author:** ![kmurphy7](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/kmurphy7/32/183249_2.png) [@kmurphy7](https://forum.nachi.org/u/kmurphy7)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 4:34am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/9 "2022-03-31T04:34:44Z")
No I understand that. What I don’t understand is where the grounds are placed. This looks like a neutral bar… ---
**Author:** ![ccurrins](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/ccurrins/32/225758_2.png) [@ccurrins](https://forum.nachi.org/u/ccurrins)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 4:42am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/10 "2022-03-31T04:42:55Z")
> [@kmurphy7](#): > > What I don’t understand is where the grounds are placed. This looks like a neutral bar… A 240 volt circuit does not require a grounded neutral. ---
**Author:** ![rmeier2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rmeier2/32/59909_2.png) [@rmeier2](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rmeier2)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 10:41am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/11 "2022-03-31T10:41:51Z")
> [@kmurphy7](#): > > No I understand that. What I don’t understand is where the grounds are placed. This looks like a neutral bar… It’s a bit unorthodox to have a feeder to a panel with no neutral so that makes it confusing. Here there is no neutral bar, the bar that would normally be used as the neutral bar is being used as the EGC bar hence the confusion. The feeder to this panel is 1Ø, 240 volts without a neutral. The NEC does not require a neutral in the feeder when there are only 240 volt loads. ---
**Author:** ![srechkin](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/srechkin/32/180448_2.png) [@srechkin](https://forum.nachi.org/u/srechkin)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 12:02pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/12 "2022-03-31T12:02:42Z")
> [@ccurrins](#): > > A 240 volt circuit does not require a ground. Are you talking about EGC (equipment grounding conductor) or some other ground? ---
**Author:** ![ccurrins](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/ccurrins/32/225758_2.png) [@ccurrins](https://forum.nachi.org/u/ccurrins)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 12:52pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/14 "2022-03-31T12:52:48Z")
Corrected. It should have said grounded neutral. ---
**Author:** ![rbleich](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rbleich/32/423577_2.png) [@rbleich](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rbleich)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 2:32pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/15 "2022-03-31T14:32:28Z")
You were right to call it out, even if only for the reason Robert stated…_”in the future this panel can only supply 240 volt, 2 wire circuits.”_. The master electrician that I apprentice with agrees that because the panel **could** be used to add 120 volt circuits that a neutral should have been added and that is was probably cheaper for the original installer not to run a neutral. He further added that _my_ local building department in NE Indiana probably wouldn’t have passed it for the same reason. Curious, is the house in Defiance county Ohio by chance? ---
**Author:** ![rmeier2](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rmeier2/32/59909_2.png) [@rmeier2](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rmeier2)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 2:53pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/16 "2022-03-31T14:53:02Z")
> [@rbleich](#): > > He further added that _my_ local building department in NE Indiana probably wouldn’t have passed it. I’m curious as to what the inspector would cite as a code violation. Barring any local amendment based on the NEC it’s code compliant. ---
**Author:** ![rbleich](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rbleich/32/423577_2.png) [@rbleich](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rbleich)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 2:59pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/17 "2022-03-31T14:59:08Z")
> [@rmeier2](#): > > I’m curious as to what the inspector would cite as a code violation. Barring any local amendment based on the NEC it’s code compliant. It was the electricians opinion based on what he knows about one of the county inspectors. He apparently apprenticed him about 30 years ago. I asked him to ask the inspector what he would do in the same situation. Stay tuned. ---
**Author:** ![dandersen](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/dandersen/32/59398_2.png) [@dandersen](https://forum.nachi.org/u/dandersen)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/18 "2022-03-31T15:48:35Z")
Can’t anyone wrap their head around that this is an HVAC Equipment panel? Thus all this confusion… Do all dryer plugs (from the past) have a neutral? Must they be changed? Reporting what a client can’t do to any electrical service is a far reach. As for future use of this panel, HI SOP does not allow “Predicting the Future”, does it not? ---
**Author:** ![jmilby](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jmilby/32/57038_2.png) [@jmilby](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jmilby)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 11:47pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/19 "2022-03-31T23:47:16Z")
David, older dryer receptacles had a neutral. They did not have a dedicated grounding conductor. ---
**Author:** ![jmilby](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jmilby/32/57038_2.png) [@jmilby](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jmilby)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2022, 11:49pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/20 "2022-03-31T23:49:25Z")
Playing what if would make every installation an issue trying to guess what someone could do. ---
**Author:** ![gwells](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/gwells/32/417638_2.png) [@gwells](https://forum.nachi.org/u/gwells)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2022, 4:13pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323/23 "2022-04-03T16:13:00Z")
> [@jfrederick](#): > > Aren’t panels downstream of the main disconnect supposed to have a 4-wire feed? Sometimes, but not always. It depends on the location and other factors. [Next page](https://forum.nachi.org/t/sub-panel-with-3-wire-feed-240v-breakers-only/213323.md?page=2)