# There's nothing wrong here !!! **URL:** \ **Category:** Electrical Inspections\ **Created:** [May 18, 2008, 8:25pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347 "2008-05-18T20:25:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Marc\_D.Shunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/marc_d.shunk/32/958_2.png) [@Marc\_D.Shunk](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Marc_D.Shunk)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:31pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/21 "2008-05-18T22:31:52Z")
> [@rbennett](#): > > Taking the client to the cleaners when there is nothing wrong? I haven’t done or suggested that at all. When I’m hired to do X, Y, and Z, that’s exactly what I’m going to do. If I’m asked my opinion on what needs done, I’ll offer it. I fully support a customer’s right to want something dumb or unnecessary done. Certainly you realize also that “correcting” everything on a HI’s list, real or imagined, really smooths out the sale process too, which has value to the seller. It’s not up to me to either analyze or discuss the seller’s motivation for wanting something particular done. If they want me to do it, that’s what I do. ---
**Author:** ![sstanczyk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/sstanczyk/32/175851_2.png) [@sstanczyk](https://forum.nachi.org/u/sstanczyk)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:33pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/22 "2008-05-18T22:33:06Z")
> [@sstanczyk](#): > > Marc, is there a date change on those CH panels? I just checked mine. I have one from about 1977, nothing in the panel or on any of the 13 single pole breakers states OK for two wires. I checked each side of each breaker and the two interior labels. Zip. Although I see the oval access hole does appear to have room for two conductors. Bump. before the argument continues and changes the thread… ---
**Author:** ![Marc\_D.Shunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/marc_d.shunk/32/958_2.png) [@Marc\_D.Shunk](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Marc_D.Shunk)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:37pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/23 "2008-05-18T22:37:40Z")
> [@sstanczyk](#): > > Bump. before the argument continues and changes the thread… Beats me, but the one in the pic is not old at all. ---
**Author:** ![rbennett](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@rbennett](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rbennett)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 10:44pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/24 "2008-05-18T22:44:17Z")
Marc I like your answer rlb ---
**Author:** ![Speedy\_Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Speedy\_Petey](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Speedy_Petey)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2008, 11:11pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/25 "2008-05-18T23:11:42Z")
Sq D HOM is another. I have to also side with Marc on this one. I also must say, he is generally much calmer and more diplomatic than me. I tend to “lay it on the line” much more quickly. So jumping all over Marc on this is quite uncalled for. The OP is ripping this “so called” electrician over something so trivial as a breaker double tap, which I know the H-I industry is a criminal offense. Thing is he came in with gun blazing and happens to be wrong. I think these are called out so much mainly because they are so easy to identify. Thing is they do not always need pointing out. ---
**Author:** ![Marc\_D.Shunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/marc_d.shunk/32/958_2.png) [@Marc\_D.Shunk](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Marc_D.Shunk)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 1:00am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/26 "2008-05-19T01:00:36Z")
I wonder if they have electricity in Romania to have this double-tap problem? 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rkie](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/rkie/32/58192_2.png) [@rkie](https://forum.nachi.org/u/rkie)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 10:51am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/27 "2008-05-19T10:51:04Z")
Mark can you explain the difference in the internal guts of the breaker that makes it allowable? for educational purposes of course. I knew that double taps are allowed for some breakers. I called out a double tap Friday on a Federal Pacific panel and educated them on the panel itself. I also suggested if they didn’t want to change out the panel to put a smoke detector right above it. It was the cleanest looking panel I have seen in as while, The panel looked like it was brand new although i know better. ---
**Author:** ![lkage](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/lkage/32/347658_2.png) [@lkage](https://forum.nachi.org/u/lkage)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2008, 1:24pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/28 "2008-05-19T13:24:08Z")
> [@rkie](#): > > Mark can you explain the difference in the internal guts of the breaker that makes it allowable? for educational purposes of course. > > I knew that double taps are allowed for some breakers. Example: ---
**Author:** ![gheller](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/gheller/32/1120_2.png) [@gheller](https://forum.nachi.org/u/gheller)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 12:04am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/29 "2008-05-20T00:04:45Z")
I agree with the original post. I would call it out for two reason. First of all no one can tell from that picture if it meets code. Remember code is the minimum standard. Second of all it is poor workmanship. Who ever installed it that way was lazy. I called this out two days ago. What do you think? Wrong call? ![double lug.jpg](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/original/3X/0/4/0466254eb47fc27e70471396e432a23bc359c781.jpeg) ---
**Author:** ![jpope](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jpope/32/59425_2.png) [@jpope](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jpope)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 12:06am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/30 "2008-05-20T00:06:44Z")
> [@gheller](#): > > I called this out two days ago. What do you think? Wrong call? Those breakers are designed for two conductors. . . However, the conductors should be the same size. ---
**Author:** ![Speedy\_Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Speedy\_Petey](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Speedy_Petey)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 1:49am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/31 "2008-05-20T01:49:43Z")
> [@gheller](#): > > I called this out two days ago. What do you think? Wrong call? Absolutely! > [@gheller](#): > > Second of all it is poor workmanship. Who ever installed it that way was lazy. Tell me why. Seriously. There are some who would call out a splice in the panel. They would be wrong as well. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_Port](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bc8723/32.png) [@Jim\_Port](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Jim_Port)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 2:04am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/32 "2008-05-20T02:04:28Z")
> [@rkie](#): > > Mark can you explain the difference in the internal guts of the breaker that makes it allowable? for educational purposes of course. > > I knew that double taps are allowed for some breakers. It is not the internals that allow this. It is the way the termination is designed and tested. For reference for current breaker styles look on the side of the breakers on the shelves in the stores. You can see the pictogram to see if 2 wires are allowed and the size ranges. ---
**Author:** ![wcorbett](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/wcorbett/32/261170_2.png) [@wcorbett](https://forum.nachi.org/u/wcorbett)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 3:58am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/33 "2008-05-20T03:58:38Z")
> [@rkie](#): > > Mark can you explain the difference in the internal guts of the breaker that makes it allowable? for educational purposes of course. > > I knew that double taps are allowed for some breakers. > > I called out a double tap Friday on a Federal Pacific panel and educated them on the panel itself. I also suggested if they didn’t want to change out the panel to put a smoke detector right above it. It was the cleanest looking panel I have seen in as while, The panel looked like it was brand new although i know better. Breakers that are only designed for one wire may only tighten down on one wire allowing the other to possibly arc. ---
**Author:** ![jfarsetta](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jfarsetta/32/327_2.png) [@jfarsetta](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jfarsetta)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 4:16am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/34 "2008-05-20T04:16:07Z")
I call them (double taps) out as a concern, and state that a re-configuration may be needed, but to consult with a licensed electrician. On to another subject near and dear to me (I’m about to stick my finger in the fan here)… As to Fed Pacific and Stab-Lock… to the electricians; wasnt it the 2-pole breakers that actually failed and not the single-pole units? The reason I ask this is that here in NY, the NY Board of Fire Underwriters do NOT flag these panels. Since the Board is actually a consortium of insurance companies who wind up PAYING claims, I find it fascinating that the rarely mention these panels. Some inspectors automatically call them out for replacement, but the facts are that testing was inconclusive and that no recall was ever issued. While no one denies that some panels and breakers were problematic, the fact remains that thousands upon thousands of FED Pacific panels with Stab-Locks exist in the field. So, sparkies… I’m playing devil’s advocate here… Your HI politically incorrect opinions, please;-) ---
**Author:** ![Marc\_D.Shunk](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/marc_d.shunk/32/958_2.png) [@Marc\_D.Shunk](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Marc_D.Shunk)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 4:46am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/35 "2008-05-20T04:46:37Z")
> [@jfarsetta](#): > > So, sparkies… I’m playing devil’s advocate here… Your HI politically incorrect opinions, please;-) Feel free to call out whatever brands or styles you want. It makes me $$$. That said, the only thing I can say for sure about FPE’s is that I have measured for myself that they don’t always trip as soon as more typical breakers of their day did. Single pole, double pole, and otherwise. I have not measured one out of spec or one that didn’t trip, but still remarkably different than other brands. I guess my response is basically non-responsive, isn’t it? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Speedy\_Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@Speedy\_Petey](https://forum.nachi.org/u/Speedy_Petey)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 10:48am UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/36 "2008-05-20T10:48:09Z")
> [@jfarsetta](#): > > The reason I ask this is that here in NY, the NY Board of Fire Underwriters do NOT flag these panels. Since the Board is actually a consortium of insurance companies who wind up PAYING claims, I find it fascinating that the rarely mention these panels. Thing is the NYBFU is an AHJ, not a H-I or otherwise. They have no grounds to call out an otherwise (technically) perfectly legal FPE panel. That is your, and my, job. And I do it all the time as do you guys. ---
**Author:** ![tdietrich1](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/tdietrich1/32/1561_2.png) [@tdietrich1](https://forum.nachi.org/u/tdietrich1)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 2:30pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/37 "2008-05-20T14:30:54Z")
This advice goes for old-timers as well as newbies. Not picking on anyone. Spend a little time cruising Home Depot(or Lowes). When I go into a supply house, they only have out new products for impulse buying. In the big box stores the items are fully out for reading and keeping up to date. Besides, where is Harry-Home-Owner going to get his knowledge for DIY electrical. 😉 tom ---
**Author:** ![jpope](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/jpope/32/59425_2.png) [@jpope](https://forum.nachi.org/u/jpope)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 3:39pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/38 "2008-05-20T15:39:59Z")
For an HI to suggest replacement of a panel, based simply on its brand name, is irresponsible IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![klott](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/klott/32/59_2.png) [@klott](https://forum.nachi.org/u/klott)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 4:01pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/39 "2008-05-20T16:01:09Z")
> [@gheller](#): > > I agree with the original post. I would call it out for two reason. First of all no one can tell from that picture if it meets code. Remember code is the minimum standard. Second of all it is poor workmanship. Who ever installed it that way was lazy. > > I called this out two days ago. What do you think? Wrong call? Square D allows double tap, but not two different size conductors. The larger one will be tight, but the smaller will be loose, not to mention the different amp ratings. BTW, this is different from the original post. ---
**Author:** ![mnicholet](https://sea2.discourse-cdn.com/internachi/user_avatar/forum.nachi.org/mnicholet/32/180018_2.png) [@mnicholet](https://forum.nachi.org/u/mnicholet)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2008, 4:11pm UTC](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347/40 "2008-05-20T16:11:57Z")
As per Carson Dunlop Electrical home inspection training: _ **’As inspectors, you should always note double taps. Explain that some authorities will accept this situation, but suggest they have it checked out.'** _ I think Tim’s call was within the scope of a home inspector. Remember we are generalist’s, its impossible to be a specialist in every trade to the detail of a journeyman with experience. [Previous page](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347.md?page=1) [Next page](https://forum.nachi.org/t/theres-nothing-wrong-here/28347.md?page=3)