This Forum May be Temporarily Suspended

Originally Posted By: Blaine Wiley
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thank you, Paul.


I'm sure all will appreciate you help and knowledge.


Originally Posted By: dandersen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Being one of those " Master Electricians " i am kinda offended myself that when argued that home inspectors should not be belittled I find it that now a HI is doing the same thing to " Master Electricians "


I dictated a reply to this Joe T. thing on my way to Inspection this morning. I see a lot has changed since. My post was a view from "on the fence".

Paul has a point here.

We can all come up with stories from Hell. Home Inspectors, Electricians, HVAC Contractors, there are bums in every trade. You know it's coming when they reply "that HI's isn't even licensed". Watch where your pointing, there are three fingers pointing back at YOU! ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Joe T. is laughing his a$% off at us and ironically,
Quote:
Ironic...
I have laughed at the so-called competency of "master" electricians.
is going on here.

Joe T. has a lot that we can use. He is out of touch with what HI's do. His ethics suck!

However, a lot of HI's post all kinds of crap onto threads that is not necessary. Some take a stand on how they conduct their business and damn everyone else if it's different. They start arguments that drift the thread and do not address the initial question of the thread. Then they leave with "I guess we have to agree to disagree".
When someone is posting an answer or debating an issue, they are looking for information. If this information, like from the NEC (which we do not enforce) does not fit into our business plan, than pass it up. Telling a HI they will end up in court or jail or the poor house is not productive and for the most part is BS. We don't have to argue with Joe T. that "this is not how we do business". Ask the question, use what information you can.

There seems to be this attitude that HI is a rigid, governed, set in stone trade. It is not. It says in the SOP's that a HI can do any service outside of the SOP (except fix the problems they find for 1 yr) if they are qualified. There are way too many s#!t house lawyers in this world and we don't need more.
When someone, like Joe T. tries to pass on good information that some of us can learn from, someone jumps in stating it is worthless information for a HI. I am sure this raises the hair on Joe's neck. I am sure it is reason for some of the stuff he pulled. It is frustrating.

HI's do not need to be NEC Electricians.
It dosen't matter if it "Passed Code" or not.
It dosen't matter. What matters is what the client wants.
I have been told that I have no enforcement powers so my Inspection is worthless. My answer, "my client is the one signing the check at closing, I don't need any more enforcement power than that".

Every client has a different family dynamic. What is good for one is not always good for another.
The code is a minimum standard, Minimum! How may signs do you see that say "Custom Built"? To minimum standard?

The entire thread is posted here on this BB (if it is removed from the other ). Read it all and look in the mirror! A lot of things posted about HI's (you know, the ones that really pissed us off) come from other sources as well. These comments are not correct for all HI's, but there are a few bad apples out there.

Let's keep this bushel free of bad apples!

If Paul takes Joe T.'s job, don't do the same to him. If you can't use his information, leave it. There are a lot of jurisdictions covered by all of us and it's not the same everywhere. Some of us use the codes, some do not (for insurance reasons). A little more information will always help. Take what you can and leave the rest for others.

There are no stupid questions.
We see a lot of HI's damned from inside and outside NACHI. We are all here for help. If you don't have something positive to add or ask, just read and move on.

Our reports may be our opinion, but we do not need to be opinionated. "Amateur wiring in the attic" is not the facts, it is opinionated. There is a place, way down there at the bottom of the forum list for off the wall opinions. Let's keep them down there and keep the facts up here. We all need to vent, after a good day at the office. Lets keep it in the right place.


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



David,


I have to say that is about the BEST post I have read on this forum. I have to agree and I just happen to be able to look at it from both sides of the fence so I can see where both are coming from.

I dont even know Joe except for a few comments I have seen posted but I can tell you this much....I am not looking for a JOB...lol.....

I am only helping where I can be helpful, I do not know Joe....nor do I think anyone has any plans for me to replace anyone...heck I only have like 15 posts here...lol I am a Moderator at a totally different forum online...

But your comments are right...and I must say very to the point and I would venture to say you run a nice and tight ship and are one of the good apples......just by the way you present yourself in your text.

I dont mind someone debating me...heck I love a good debate but the line for the HI is in the sand......they should NOT comment beyond the SOP when it come to home inspections unless they have a specialty in the electrical area as I do have.

Beyond the obvious notes leave it to the professional tradesman if it is beyond the scope of the inspection.

I dont get offended easy.....I just ask like I do....so no one is going to bother mer as my 7 year old son whipes that away with his smile each night...lifes to short to get pi@@y over a debate.

Again I am here to help........not replace anyone but again not sure where that came from....but I just happen to be someone who can see both sides and give opinions on both is all.

Anyway.....KUDOs to a great post.......


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: jbushart
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



information and some of it was even relevant to home inspecting. We have several who frequent this board, fortunately, who can provide the same.


But there is no degree of frustration, no legitimate amount of anger, and no reasonable justification at all for any member (or vendor) of this association to copy posts from this message board and paste them to another message board for the purpose of disparaging an individual (as Joe did), and association (as Joe did), and an entire profession (as Joe did). Frustrated or not, it is indicative of a total lack of character and should never be tolerated under any circumstances. I'm sure you agree.

The day that any of us decline an opporttunity to solicit help or advice on this message board out of fear that a trusted member or a vendor will take our post and copy it to another message board as an example of idiocy --- the message board has lost its value.

There will always be controversy on this board and when a group of professionals of varying backgrounds and experiences weigh in on a topic, it is not always something that we would want our mothers to hear. Still, no matter how upset or frustrated we ever become, we need to ensure that our response is always consistent with our code of ethics and with an understanding that we share membership in this association and, accordingly, have a duty to each other.

I submit to you for your consideration that, in spite of all that has been posted on this topic, the subject of this debate has yet to offer so much as an apology or any kind of acknowledgement that what he did was wrong. I don't care what kind of debate he may have lost that made him feel that he was justified in doing what he did, but he was wrong. Just plain wrong.


--
Home Inspection Services of Missouri
www.missourihomeinspection.com

"We're NACHI. Get over it."

www.monachi.org

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I have to admit I am a bit of a newbie to what this " joe" has done but if you are correct in that he posted from this board JUST to berate and belittle your profession for no gain other than personal it was wrong.


I can't even begin to know why someone would do that, what could possibly be gained from it....heck HI's are no threat to me as a electrician....and visa versa....so no matter how much someone helps or brings knowledge.....they also have to bring respect.

I guess I would be surprised why we is still allowed on the boards but thats not my call.

I guess it becons the call..." Can't we all just get along "....now where did I hear that before.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: dandersen
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Quote:
Let's keep this bushel free of bad apples!
.

My post is just to keep perspective, not justify.

I will be the first to say that I have not read all the post (but as many as time allowed). I would not take a stand without knowing and reading all the facts.

It was very interesting to find Joe T.'s post gone when I got home tonight! ![icon_surprised.gif](upload://57CELbNgOav4I8DdysEp4jSUiyx.gif) The whole thing may be gone by the morn.

My main point. We can learn from this.


Originally Posted By: kwilliams
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



David, good post, I like your way of thinking.



Member - MAB


http://www.nachi.org/convention2006.htm

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Dave, excellent post’s


Being a non-member of NACHI, I agree with most of the statements about what Joe T did on another forum was wrong (I have read Joe's Post and the rest of the posted responses to that POST that was on this site). It is in NACHI organization's hands on what to do with Joe T.

Paul
"masters license under the grandfather clause in most states" I have never ran across in by construction and or inspection business (42 Years, 10 different states) a grandfathered Master Electrician, all the Master Electrician's that I know, had to take a test. I have ran across a few grandfathered Journeyman Electrician's in the past, but they are now in there 70's & 80's and they had to take a test to become a Master Electrician.

The most asked questions on any HI forums are on the electrical system. Just get a different moderator instead.


--
Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI
Viking Construction Services Inc.

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Monte,


Well let me explain the Commonweath States........and Virginia is not the only one. Back about 6-8 years ago they started a gradnfather clause which said if you have been doing electrical for 10 years or more or before a certain date you would be grandfathers to level of master electrician without any testing......( I WAS APPAULED) but it is in plan written form and on the DPOR website........it has since expired as you had a time frame to comply.....and it was like this in a few other states also.

So as a tested ( both levels ) electrician I found it obserd to grandfather anyone into anything without testing....so every industry has their "black eyes...".....HI's are given a bad rap sometimes but hey it comes with the territory....some electricians do also.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: jkormos
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Just as granny used to say if you can’t say anything nice don’t say anything at all. I guess there is a time and place for everything, this was not the time or the place.


Originally Posted By: mtimpani
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



I agree, but how long will everyone remember this episode? 2 or 3 months from now it will be a different story.



Thank you, MarkTimpani


www.pridepropertyinspections.com

Originally Posted By: jwortham
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Mark,


You're probably right. I know I have a LONG memory about these kinds of things though! ![icon_wink.gif](upload://ssT9V5t45yjlgXqiFRXL04eXtqw.gif)


Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



my granny used to say this also…



Anything that leaves a BAD taste in your mouth tends to linger long after the poop has hit the fan......now what was granny talking about....


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



To all, as a moderator at ECN I would like to let you know that the offensive thread has been removed and steps have been taken to try to prevent it from happening again.


I think the members of NACHIs forum are very aware that opinions expressed on a forum are not always the opinion of the membership as a whole.

Everyone here is welcome at ECN, do not let the opinions of a some keep you away, or lead you to believe that all electricians have a problem with home inspectors.

I myself enjoyed helping many of you out here in the past. ![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

Bob


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: lkage
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thanks, Bob.


I, for one, appreciate the input of many electricians.

Appreciate your efforts.


--
"I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him."
Galileo Galilei

Originally Posted By: Monte Lunde
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thank you Paul for your answer, never have worked on the East coast (Sears Tower was as far East as I got)



Monte Lunde CCI, CCPM, CRI


Viking Construction Services Inc.

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob,


I think the members here will appreciate your comments. As a electrician myself I do believe others think along the lines I do as well as yourself and we are here to assist both fields and professions any way possible.

I am a Moderator as well of another electrical forum and we as well would not stand for such postings or be-rating of another organization as the standard of the industry as we whole.

I think you show others are open to reason and understanding.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thanks Paul and all other responders.


I try to keep an open mind but occasionally let my stubbornness get the best of me.

Anyway I am an electrician that really believes HIs can make a real difference in electrical safety.

In most areas electrical inspectors can only look at buildings that have a electrical permit open, and even then they are usually limited to things with in the scope of the permit.

On the other hand HIs can look at everything, they can even make recommendations for safety that go beyond the codes at the time of construction, that is something electrical inspectors can not do.

A quick look at the pictures posted here is all that is need to see that HIs find some really scary electrical work. ![icon_eek.gif](upload://yuxgmvDDEGIQPAyP9sRnK0D0CCY.gif)


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN

Originally Posted By: pabernathy
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Bob,


You are 100% right......I was a electrical inspector years ago for the city I grew up in and you are right as our arms were tied all the time because we had to accept the minimum standard ( NEC ) and of course we KNOW what people do after we leave...lol....

That is another area HI's are needed and it should open the eyes of others who do not think like us........we do a job and do not go back as electricians unless their is a problem......BUT when the home is sold who knows what the home owner has done.....so it means this...

1.) They ensure added safety to the home owner over chances the DIYer may have made.

2.) Most do not want to believe it but their are still some electricans who like the service all part of the business and these HI's give us service work.....we do feed our kids the same way...![icon_smile.gif](upload://b6iczyK1ETUUqRUc4PAkX83GF2O.gif)

3.) IN most states Electricans still do not have CE programs.....sure wish all states did but HI's are required to stay up on the chances with CE classes...if part of a organization which is why I do not think RE's should hire any HI unless they are part of a organization that requires CE classes each year.....and NACHI required 24......some of the others only 8 or less.....

We are all here to help each other......Glad to know you my friend.


--
Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com

Originally Posted By: bbadger
This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.



Thanks again Paul.


I must say that it truly baffles me why electricians have such a hard time with HIs.

Heres how I see it.

1)A HI calls out something is wrong recommends a 'sparky' takes a look at it. Sparky finds all is well, electrician charges for his time and the HI has some explaining to do.

2)A HI calls out something is wrong recommends a 'sparky' takes a look at it. Sparky comes out finds the HI is correct, fixes the problem and charges for his time and matrial.

In both of these cases the EC makes money.

Then there is one other scenario

3)An HI calls out something is wrong recommends a 'sparky' takes a look at it. The work is wrong and the original sparky is called on the carpet for the bad work.

In this case I have no sympathy at all for the EC, they should have done the job correctly in the first place.

So IMO the only ECs that should have an issue with HIs are the hacks that should not be wiring anyway.

I happen to live in MA which means both ECs and HIs are regulated by the state. I am also required 21 hours of CE each code cycle. ![icon_cool.gif](upload://oPnLkqdJc33Dyf2uA3TQwRkfhwd.gif)

Bob


--
Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN