Originally Posted By: rray
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Okay, I’m really confused.
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Okay, I’m really confused.
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Ok guys....here it is in a nutshell!!!
Russ....hold unto your socks for I have to agree with Jack on this one. It is hard to see if the buss bars are continuous between the top and the middle breakers or not. But the only thing that makes any sense is that this is a split buss panel.
I say this because, if the buss bars were continuous, the middle breaker does nothing at all. If the buss bars were continuous, there would be no reason to add a breaker and a set of jumpers as indicated in the picture because the middle breaker would automatically be getting power through the continuous buss. Therefore, for the fact that there are jumpers there, it MUST be a split buss panel.
The main feeders that you were unable to find are more than likely behind the gray cover on top of the panel. Thus, power from the meter is being fed to the buss bars, behind the gray cover. The top breaker is feeding the subpanel and it is the disconnecting means for the subpanel. The middle breaker, is the disconnecting means for the bottom part of the panel, which has a single range breaker in it. The jumpers on the middle breaker are providing power to the bottom part of the split buss panel.
This is a main lug splt buss panel, in that there is no main breaker installed to kill power to both sections of the panel. Power comes in to the top of the panel in the area we cannot see. It feeds the top breaker which feeds the subpanel. The jumpers off of the main lugs then feed the middle breaker which feeds ths bottom portion of the panel.
I admit I was wrong on this one at first. Without being able to see what is between that top and middle breaker, I assumed that it was different than I am saying now. Jack is 100& correct....this is a split buss panel. It is the only thing that makes any sense. Good caall Jack!!!
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Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Dennis… thanks…
Russ.... I think Dennis explained it better than me but maybe he and I understand it easier because of our electrical backgrounds... I was also wondering what size meter base was on the house... do you have that information....
Originally Posted By: rray
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Before I had read Dennis’s posts, I had printed Jack’s post and the picture and studied them and now understand what’s going on.
Here's the meter and the panel with cover on.
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/Electric.jpg
So this is a left/right split buss rather than the typical top/bottom split buss? Never seen this before. I look forward to doing more homes in this specific area.
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Home inspections. . . .
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Russ,
Nice custom fit on that meter eh  
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Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Actually Russ, it’s a top/bottom split and a 400 amp service…would love to see a pic from further back … seems to me that this installation would be pretty ugly on the side of a new home…is it common to install your panels outside with your meter bases in CA?
Originally Posted By: rray
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I’m not following the top/bottom split, then.
Only in the old, non-upgraded properties are the meter and panel anywhere other than outside. In the pre-WWII properties, panels tend to be in bedroom closets. Post-WWII they tend to be other places inside. Post-Korean War they are outside.
Here's a new one for you.
http://www.nachi.org/bbsystem/usrimages/PanelNP.jpg
This is a subpanel in the garage. Where is it drawing power from?
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Home inspections. . . .
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Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Maybe this will help… the two 200 amp breakers are working opposite each other mechanically… the top breaker is connected to the upper bus and receives power from it’s connecting slots in the back of the breaker where it contacts the upper bus… the upper bus is always hot as long as the meter is in place… the upper breaker then sends power out to a subpanel thru the cable connected to the lugs on the breaker…
The lower breaker is fed from the upper aluminum lugs in the panel by those short jumper conductors thru the breaker’s lugs and when you turn the lower breaker on, it sends power to the lower copper bus thru it’s connection to the lower bus via it’s connecting slots in the back of the breaker… the copper bus splits right between the two 200 amp breakers so it is split into a top very small bus and a lower larger bus where you can plug in many more breakers…
As far as your other subpanel, I would guess it’s being fed from your first subpanel thru the conduit that is at the bottom of your second subpanel … but instead of using the lugs in this panel to feed it… they connected it to what appears to be a double pole 50 amp breaker which in then serving as the “main” for the second subpanel…
Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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I concur with what Jack said.
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Originally Posted By: rray
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Got it.
The 50-amp dual-pole actually is a 20-amp dual-pole. The others were 15 amps. So is that 20-amp dual-pole working as a disconnect for the other breakers, or is this then just a panel with some breakers in it located away from the other panel?
Powering the panel like this is unusual for the stuff I've been inspecting. Is this sort of common outside the Great State of Idiocy in Politics?
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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WOW…I dunno…if it was me I’d say up that breaker to at least a 30 ampper…or heck, there has to be a breaker feeding that subpanel someplace…I hope so take that 20 amp 2 pole out all together and attach the wires right to the main lugs…Well at least they got the grounding right.....but even though that is a pvc connector coming in the bottom.....it should have a bushing on it.....
What kind of circuits are being used in that panel?
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Originally Posted By: rray
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The breaker feeding this panel should be in the panel with all the cool wiring labeling, but I did not read all those wire labels, so I really don’t know.
I would have expected the wires to be attached right to the main lugs. I've never seen a powered panel with no wires attached to those main lugs. I know how to do the simple electrical stuff the standard way, but this seemed so much non-standard to me.
"What kind of circuits are being used in that panel?"
Define "kind of circuits." Do you mean circuit breaker manufacturer? If so, they were Cutler-Hammer.
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Originally Posted By: jmcginnis
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Russ… something has to be powering that panel…(if it’s energized) and the only way it can be happening is thru that double pole breaker, since the lugs are empty… I think Dennis, like me is curious as to what type of load is on that panel that it could operate effectively with just a 20 amp main breaker… also, how old is the home? Split buses were outlawed in the 1981 NEC…
Originally Posted By: rray
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The four labeled wires were lights, outlets, irrigation, and exterior lights.
I think the "lights" and "outlets" were for the garage since this panel was located in the garage. Irrigation was low-voltage, as were exterior lights, and their control boxes were at locations on the exterior of the garage.
The home was built in 2002.
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Originally Posted By: Dennis Bozek
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Russ…
It should be ok with that 20 amp breaker providing the sprinklers aren't running at the same time the outside lights are on and the home owner is inside cutting a piece of plywood....ummm naw you're probably ok with that 20 amp breaker.
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