Voltage Drop

Specific Inspection Topics Electrical Inspections
41

Cookie

As an electrician (retired) is the problem the testing or is it the HI testing

If you sent a good employee but not an electrician to a home with a “GOOD” test box to do VD testing and then come back to the office with the results, would it be a good deal??

Thank goodness that we are not using gas lights and candles

As time passes our electrical hopefully get better and safer but at this time in my market I see a mess

It is almost to the point that if I was not a HI and buying a home I would almost call an electrician

rlb

42

It is Home Inspectors testing above there ability . Where does it end .
If HI #1 inspects for Voltage drop ( not a big concern in my mind )
and advertises this then others will be trying to do the same thing .
(I see how many HIs have very little knowledge on electricity on this BB)
( some need to have a bit of improvement )
Now HI #2 is and expert in gas and he uses this as his advertisement and he looks for things Most HIs
( including me ) would not be concerned about .
If HI #3 is an heating air then he is using this to increase his inspections .
There are just too many things we do not need to be trying to check on and are just increasing time spent doing an inspection and giving us more places to go wrong.
We are generalists not specialists and should not be trying to look like a specialist.
It seems the older Home Inspector who has been around and set up the SOP we all try to follow .
It is the new HIs who are looking for the niche to make more work .
It in my openion will back fire and come back to haunt us .
If a person want to specialize great but why try to specialize and inspect homes at the same time.
It can not be done in three ± hours
.
… Cookie

43

Roy:

If I complete the onsite part of an inspection of a 2000 sq ft home in less than 3 hours now, I start to wonder what I may have missed…and I don’t test water temps, pressure; don’t have IR. Did a 1 year warranty inspection on a 1.5 million home last year and was there over 16 hours by the time I figured out and documented all the screw-ups!!

44

Roy

You are a good HI, a good electrician and a good debater

Good points on your post - just remember that as the black boxes of our profession get better our time at the home comes down and the services that we can provide to our clients goes up. This saves everyone $$ and pain

We hopefully will never be better that the system professionals but we should be able to test (not just look at) the home systems

$10.00 buys a water pressure meter - $10.00 buys a thermometer to check the hot water temp - $10.00 buys a 3 light tester. $200.00 buys a camera, etc.

Radio Shack and Home Depot sell most of the black boxes that we need

I do not think we would be doing our clients a good service to go back to just a flashlight

Someone testing for VD is not a specialist
Someone testing for radon is not a specialist
Someone testing for water quality is not a specialist

etc. etc. etc.

VD is the issue and it takes little time to make the check

If the equipment was a little less $$ the home owner could do it himself

VD testing saves $$ and gives the home owner a better picture of his electrical system

I just don’t like SureTest

If you were called to a home as an electrician to inspect - would you do any VD testing to find high resistance issues??

If why - then why?

If not - then why?

Remember you know what can go wrong if someone plugs an electric space heater in the bed room to keep the kid warm

rlb

45

If I read the post correctly about the Yo-yo that didn’t remove the electrical panel cover to look inside. That itself is enough to get you convicted of almost any electrical issue later down the road - let alone killing 2 kids.

46

We charge $399:00 and take about 3 hours with report handed to the client
two inspectors .
We have many who do inspection in under two hours with report and charge about $200:00.
Will I change I expect not… Cookie

47

How was removing the service panel cover going to find a loose connection behind the bed? That’s a heluva flashlight you have.
I suppose the real question is whether an AFCI would have tripped on a loose connection (series fault). :wink:

48

Looks like this thread is starting to die

Please start checking for VD when your gut thinks that this is a good idea

Learn how to do it on your own home if you feel that it is something that you are not comfortable doing

Trust me you will be providing a good service to your client

rlb

49

George

Maybe could have saved two lives but as you know this would have probably required a complete up grade

Don’t know if said breakers were even on the market when fire happened

This brings a new point to the thread

Thank you

rlb

50

Roy

I sense that you think that the average HI is not qualified to do some of the electrical inspections like VD

In short I agree - but with a little training (education) and I am not talking about years here I think this can be done

With your background what would you want a tester to do and how would you want the results reported

Remember we are talking about black box testers here

rlb

51

You are forgetting all the other things over and above what a home inspector does on a normal visual inspection.
I recommend that a home inspector sticks to the Standard of Practice.
What makes you think all the other home inspector associations S.O.P. should be ignored.
The S.O.P. has been studied and tuned to be the most sensible method of doing home inspection over many many years.
I think basically following this is the best way for all inspections to be done.
If the SOP is not broke why try to fix it

… Cookie
…

52

Roy

Good point about the SOP

I will have to think on that one

Later

rlb

53

Try the Amprobe INSP-3. Just bought one and love it. It’s more expensive than the SureTest, but it seems like a more recent (improved?) design and shows the results of voltage drop test on one screen; no toggling back and forth. Might be a good idea if there seems to be an issue, to take a photo of the INSP-3 display screen and note which receptacle it was from.

I recently did a voltage drop test on a new $6.5 million home and found nearly 15% drop at the end of a circuit. The house had never been lived in and all lights were off. So no other loads on the circuit. I deferred it to a licensed and bonded electrical contractor for further evaluation and correction as needed. Let him/her decide what to do about it. I hope they don’t have to rip out drywall.

That said, I’m a bit afraid to use the tester on every inspection as I don’t want to give an “enemy” lawyer a reason to blame. (HI found this, but “failed” to find that.)

54

According to the NEC voltage drop compensation is optional (with a few exceptions) and is a design issue. Although I agree 15% is in some instances excessive how would you justify making a correction to something that is permitted by the electrical code?

55

I would love to test representative sample of receptacle(s) at what appears to be the end of a circuit run, but it has been said doing so could result in increased “liability”. Imagine that – do a better job and get “blamed” for it. Ugh!!!:mad:

Does that mean “best effort” increases liability? In what warped world?

That said, finding 10% voltage drop at a receptacle might be an indicator, but maybe not a definitive result. Right? We can’t tell for sure if it really is at the end of a circuit. What other loads are on the circuit? Maybe its best to state it as a possible hazard and let an electrician make the final determination and find the cause of the issue? What harm can that do?

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

56

IMO you would need to determine if the VD is because of an excessively long run of conductors or because of a loose connection or some other defect. Obviously a loose connection is a hazard and should be examined.

57

Although on longer runs there is voltage drop, and more significant at higher current levels. We had a calculator which we used, more like a slide rule actually. (dates me I guess)

Here is a online version - but remember to put in double the distance for wire length as the current has to go to the appliance and return. (if receptacle is 75 feet, there is 150 feet of actual wire run)

http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/wire/voltage-drop-calculator.htm

And remember this is conductor only, there will be additional resistance on all connection points (screws - at plug, etc). Each is small, but incremental resistance.

The neat thing about a calculator - if anybody is interested … check aluminum and copper drops. Same gauge for each and there is quite a significant difference… but check 12 ga al against 14 ga cu and almost identical.

58

What conductor length, what amperage, what wire gauge…

A receptacle located far enough away from source to use 75 feet of 14 gauge wire (150 feet total conductor length)… with 120 volts source voltage at 15 amps would have a drop in the copper conductor alone of 11.3 volts or 9.5%. That is only on wire resistance and nothing else.

Having said this… why would an inspector worry about this… an electrician is going to come in and say all is good. (if only conductor loss)

59

The NEC voltage drop (5% at receptacle) is a recommendation for efficiency, not a code requirement. So wording needs to take that into consideration, but high VD at a receptacle can be an indicator of hazardous issues with a circuit.

The HI cannot tell what defects might be in the circuit, such as how the circuit is wired: series (back-stabbed or “speed wired”) or parallel (pigtailed), circuit run too long for AWG used, has high resistance connections (loose connections at pig tails?), worn or corroded receptacles (tester easily falls out or does not achieve a solid connection), etc. AFCIs can go a long way toward protecting circuits, but can fail over time – especially if not tested monthly (who does that?)

The INSP-3, properly used, can tell a lot if an electrician is willing to do the work and someone is willing to pay for it to be done. According to Test Equipment Depot.com, the SureTest 61-165 has been discontinued. Perhaps we can expect an “updated” version of it?

If VD seems excessive (in excess of 10%, as some municipalities say), its probably best to list it as an indicator to be verified by a licensed and bonded electrical contractor. That said of course there are some mighty fine electrical contractors (who will investigate) and perhaps some not so fine (who will poo-poo the recommendation). But that’s the same in all professions – good and not so good. I’ve had an electrician tell the client that a three prong, three wire dryer receptacle is the latest standard and not four prong, four wire (2008 NEC). Yes, three prong can be “grandfathered in”, but four prong is still safer and can be recommended as a safety upgrade from a three prong. But that’s all we can do is to mention it and defer it, but not make the “final” decision.

I think its important, if one is to use such a device as an INSP-3, to mention the condition as an indicator to be further evaluated. Should a HI use one? That’s a personal decision. Does it’s use increase “liability”? That’s a legal question I’ll bet will get different opinions, depending on who wants what from whom.

Yes, its not in SOP. Should it be? Who knows? Am I going to use it on every inspection, probably not. But only if there seem to be some potential issues such as dimming lights under load, an older house that was originally wired with two prong receptacles, a mixture of two prong and three prong receptacles, etc., I might pull the INSP-3 out and test. But that will be on a case-by-case basis. I don’t want to send an electrician on a goose chase, only to have him/her tell the agent, “the home inspector doesn’t know what he’s talking about.”

So who knows. The HI needs to decide for him/her self. It seems to be quite controversial to say the least, whether or not a HI should test for voltage drop.