True, The application makes all the difference, however. I have seen 60 amp panels running apartments, which were promptly overloaded running a water heater, dryer, and a stove besides the usual. On these, I recommended an upgrade.
I do think the insurance company is being a bit irrational. if it is UNDERSIZED, it should shut itself off in event of catastrophic overload, leaving no fire hazard at all. (but a big pain in the butt)
Code and good sense aside, panels of any size are not inherently fire hazards as long as the components are in proper working order - i.e. the breakers will trip when their amp rating is exceeded. Take an extreme (and unlikely) case of a panel with a 60 amp main and 12 - 20 amp breakers. In spite of the fact that 12 - 20 amp load could, in theory, introduce 240 amps, the main breaker will trip when the total panel load exceeds 60 amps, thus protecting the system.
Conversely, panels of any size (200 amp or lrager) represent a very serious fire hazard if any of the breakers are defective. Unfortunately, virtually no one ever hires qualified testing services to test the components of their home electrical systems as industrial facilities do.
Hi All,
My service is a 175 amp.
Maybe your clients will see it the same way sometime when you don’t report on something that is not in the SOP and not visible (where the wires go). :shock:
Bottom line- the insurance company can do whatever they want. You’re asking the insurer to take a risk on you and your house. Although I totally disagree, I’m sure their assertions are based on statistics, not code, not physical science. 13 years as an AHJ, I have gone toe-to-toe with insurance companies (especially State Farm) who wrongfully state “fuses are unsafe”, “Knob and tube wiring is a code violation”, and “anything less than 100 amps is too small”.
Of course, the only reason I spend time going toe-to-toe with them is because their claims are woefully inaccurate and offensive to those who have invested the time to learn the science behind the issues. I have absolutely no problem with the insurance company denying folks coverage, I just wish they’d cite their stats instead of inaccurately purveying code and science.
Home Inspectors are not responsible for Insurance company opinion.
Try two other companies and get reasons for opinion, with facts to back up the opinion.
There are accepted materials in use that they do not like, but we do not base our opinion on what “Bean Counters” think.
Let me throw my 2 cents in.
If the old 60AMP is in fact a sub panel did the contractor leave to old wiring and circuits in use?
A Home Inspector is just not an Insurance underwriter. And frankly , though I do call out the available service and add a comment about difficulty (note difficulty , not inability since I am not an insurance underwriter) if it’s an old 60Amp.
Based on your description , though I find the 125A a bit odd , as long as things were well and properly done I wouldn’t find that setup something to call out as a difficulty to insure based on the Amperage. Of course what is being fed by what is even more important.
I concur that you need to call a different Insurance carrier/agent. Just possible you’ve got somebody who doesn’t have a clue so as soon as they saw 60A they rejected it.
Wow,
Technically, fuses are safe, where they are NOT safe, is the application. (I did this too in my ignorant days) When a homeowner says, “…that darn 15 A fuse keeps blowing, lets put a 30 in there…”
I look at Type S fuses as the minimum. Not full change to circuit breakers. After all, I’m still loosing sleep over the roughly 100 Federal Pacific 108-16 panels I installed in the early eighties.
A big thank you to everyone for the professional, constructive feedback.
It looks like I was about to spend $2k on an unnecessary upgrade and get an inferior insurance product.
It turns out that my HI was really on the ball.
I checked out a different insurance company. They didn’t take issue with the electrical supply to the home and offered me insurance that was a couple of hundred dollars cheaper with better coverage!
I promptly called the other insurance company back and told them to forget it. I referred them to the advice I got on this forum and you could just hear the representative’s jaw drop over the phone.
I advised them that they may want to reconsider some of their policies. The rep then said that management would certainly be made aware as “this call was being recorded for the sake of quality assurance”.
The rep then asked me if I was sure I wanted to cancel as being a member of a group plan, “this insurance is not offered to the general public”. Thank God for that I said as I hung up.
I see 125 Amp panels in KC several times a month. If I go 30 miles away to Leavenworth Kansas, I see them putting in NEW 150 Amp panels (never seen them in Kansas City). Regional differences.
Nobody has asked a question that jumps out to me immediately …
You originally said **“When the home was renovated, the contractor brought a new power line from the outside to a new electrical panel” **
In most areas I’ve ever lived pulling new power lines inside to a NEW electrical panel require things like: permits, the power company involvement, an inspection of work, etc.
Was this done there? If so what was their decision?
Insurance companies often make their own rules and quote them as gospel. Not so. Having done this for over 30 years, I’d have to have seen the place when your inspector did - to determine if it was something I’d report as a deficiency or not.
If a 60 amp service is not double-tapped or messed up inside, in my experience it would be more of an inconvenience than fire hazard (if a circuit is overloaded it blows and can’t be turned on without a new fuse).
See other insurance companies and ask your local utilities to review the permits the contractor got and their inspection sign-offs.
Thanks for the advice re permits.
With respect to the 60 amp sub panel, my HI did inform me that he was unable to gain access to the screws, so was unable to actually look inside that panel.
I believe the sub panel did have breakers…all were labeled as to the appliances they were feeding.
I totally agree with Dan re permits. In Vancouver BC this is for sure a requirement for a new service brought to the house.
please do us a favour. Advise us exactly what breakers are in this 60A sub panel. what size and what do they feed. Do the same thing for the main panel.
Those that say that a breaker will just flip off if overloaded are misinforming you. There are many circumstances in which this may not happen. The code is there for a reason - to protect you
The Electrical code in BC is pretty clear. 60A is not adequate for all except the smallest of houses with the minimal of current draw. Your original post does not make it clear what is feeding from the 60A sub panel.
The way you make it sound is that the original house was 60A. A new service and panel of 125A was brought in (this must have been a very long time ago because 125A is not allowed for by current BC Electrical code - goes 60, 100, 120, 150, 200). But you do not say that the existing house circuits were moved from the 60 sub panel into the new main panel. What other than the 60A sub panel is being fed from the main panel.
Please also note, that based on the size of the home, if there is electric baseboard heating or heating mats in say the bathroom floors, is there a hot tub or jacuzzi tub present, do you have an electric element in your furnace, any other permanent large load electrical devises - that even 125A may be too small for the dwelling based on the fact that it has a suite in it. You need to get an electrician to do a load calc. for the dwelling.
If a majority of the house is being fed through the 60A sub-panel and the house has normal electrical needs and is more than 861 sq ft then this installation is not to code, most likely was not installed under permit and most likely represents a hazard to you.
As the inspector told you they did not have access to the panel, they have covered their obligation to you. But this should have been a red flag to you and you should have asked the previous owner to make the panel accessible for re-inspection.
Last piece of advise is please do not get caught up in what is “standard” in other parts of Canada or in the USA. You only care what is standard and to code in BC. So the talk of what service is standard in other parts of Canada or the USA is irrelevent to you. If you as a home owner want a great book on electrical that conforms to your BC Electrical code go to your box home renovation store and buy the latest version of Electrical Code Simplified by P.S. Knight. It is an easy to follow text with pictorial that explains what is required and how to do it. I was able to rewire my condo from scratch (under permit) with no prior electrical experience back in 1990 using nothing but this book.
I beg you, do not right this off as just an over agressive insurance agent. Get a licensed electrition to go through your house and make sure you are safe and make recommendations if you are not. If you truly are interested in ‘doing it right’ you could even get a free inspection from your local electrical department at city hall. People usually do not want to do this because there is something they know is not ‘right’ and they want to to hide it. But remember - codes are there to protect you from bodily harm first and structure protection second.
Cheers
Sean
Senwi House Inspections
Ray:
That is the first time that I have heard that a 125 A service (with a suite)
is a potential fire hazard. Shop around as there is more than one ins.co.
Have a qualified residential electrician inspect the system and get it in writing
if no upgrades are req’d. It would be money well spent.
T.Neyedli
www.alphahomeinspections.ca
BPCPA #47827
Thanks for your concern! Will take your advice to heart. (Nice to hear from a fellow BC’er by the way).
I don’t take possession of the home for another week…so I will take a detailed look at the sub panel of course.
However…I do have my HI report. It does say that the sub panel has a “DISCONNECT RATING” of 60 amps and a “PANEL RATING” of 100 amps. Is this relevant?
I am pretty sure the main panel feeds the home (not the sub panel).
There is a note stating that the main panel has “room for expansion”.
My HI also took a picture of the sub panel. Looks like it is feeding some major appliances like a washer, dryer, range and the air conditioning unit.
Although I am not 100% sure, I think the sub panel basically feeds the suite.
The suite does have its own heating system – baseboard electric. (The main part of the house is heated by forced air).
Whew, in retrospect, I wished I had asked more questions of my HI. Having limited knowledge of electrical panels, I had no reason too at the time. But when I followed up with him after the scare from the insurance company, he really did not think there was a problem with the set up.
Hey…thanks for the advice…I am at least going to check it out with City Hall. (Coquitlam City Hall)
By the way, the contractor who bought the house last year as an investment and renovated it, may be doing some work for us (deck and garage) if the price is right. I guess I could run it by him too…but of course he is going to maintain that he does quality work.
I guess it is also worth checking the permits. Would BC Hydro have this on file or city hall again?
Ray, you’ve gotten some pretty good info here, now I’m going to rant a bit.
I tire rapidly after doing this for fifteen years about hearing how my home inspector “missed” something. The vast majority of the time, the “missed” item was either reported upon, specifically excluded in the report, or not part of the home inspection per the SOP the inspector followed.
In this case, your inspector properly reported that you had a 125 amp panelboard with a 60 amp equipment panel, and that he could not access the interior of the 60 amp panel.
Unless he had specific knowledge, possibly including that of a licensed electrician, performing a load or usage calculation would be considered technically exhaustive, which is beyond the scope of a visual home inspection.
A home inspector misses something when he walks the roof and doesn’t see a 1 foot hole in the roof, or fails to report that he has seen it, or that he couldn’t see the entire roof for whatever reason. The inspector does not miss something that requires a calculation, reports that something was not accessible, or did not perform something that is beyond the SOP of a standard visual home inspection, like moving personal items or removing a soffit cover or opening a drain line cap, etc.
Seems like you had a pretty good home inspector.
Thanks. I hear what you are saying. And yes, I gleaned some good info here and got some education.
I am in fact pleased with the job my HI did and I did word the title of the thread in the form of a question – leaving it open.
Maybe I should have phrased the title of this thread to read: “What my Home Inspector picked up on”. But would that have grabbed your interest?
And just an update if anyone’s interested…I contacted the provincial electrical authority who confirmed that the electrical work was done with a work permit and the “homeowner did everything that was expected”. This does not mean of course that they actually came out and inspected the work.
Thanks for the suggestion to check out the work permit. It was a real quick phone call which was answered in seconds.
Ray,
Yes, you have gotten some good (and bad) information on this site. Bottom line is, we don’t have enough information to know if your main and sub panels have enough capacity. The only person that can tell you for sure is an electrician. The calculation that needs to be performed is not difficult, but it is not straight forward either, and you should be licensed to do it.
Hi Ray,
Blaine and Paul both have good points. The extra info you have provided about what the inspector told you in the report shows he did his job.
Doing a load calc is not within the inspectors responsibilities and better left to a licensed electrician. I personally do do a rough one if I suspect a problem and then warn the client accordingly.
To follow up your comments.
the sub panel disconnect rating and panel rating are important but not for this discussion
Based on your description of what the sub panel is feeding it may be pushing things.
When you move in provide a photo of both panels and the description of breakers (rating and use) for both panels to me by email and I will throw my spreadsheet at it and give you an idea if you have a problem.
Make sure you check out the contractor thoroughly before committing. If he did not take out a permit for the work he already did, then I would not let him do anything more to the home. You can get a list of permits taken out for the house at city hall.
Just a last thought. You mentioned the house has an air conditioner (probably 20A) and you mention baseboard heating. Your are definitely getting close to the threshold of 125A considering there is a suite in the home.
Good Luck
Sean
inspectoratbchouseinspectionsdotca (sub the at and dot)
Say…thanks! Will do.
As already mentioned…I checked him out. He did get a work permit for the electrical.
Then again…probably will not be running the Air Con and the electric baseboard heating at the same time. I am not sure that Air Con is even necessary in this part of the country…moderate Pacific climate. But the wife wants it for the couple of weeks in July where it tends to get muggy.