When is it OK?

Does that mean they were using the bare conductor as a power conductor and no ground?

Yup The field manager noticed it when he was straightening up the crooked switch so ther cover would be level.

Greg,

If the power is at both points in a 3-way setup their is nothing wrong with using 14-2 as travelers only...re-identify the neutral for now a hot application and reidentifying it......done everyday.

 Is that what you are refering to?...in fact my brother does it all the time when he may have a 3 way set up that has the same circuit power at both ends.....saves on 14-3...and perfectly legal to do.

As for municiples....guess I am spoiled as our guys dont take bribes....they do a fine job and as well as can be expected.....Mr. Lilly who is the president of the IAEI this term is one of our local inspectors....heck of a nice guy and does a wonderful job.

 Now places like Chicago and so on...may have issues....but to be honest with you I would prefer to have some kind of municiple inspections taking place...verus NONE taking place...anyday.

hmmm…I dont think you are talking about the same thing as I am…sorry…

Tell me again how you run travellers and either the hot or the neutral with 14-2? All conductors in a circuit must be grouped. You can’t run the travellers in one run and go another way with the neutral or the common.
That is the definition of inductive heating.

Greg,

Their are many electricians who have a 14-2 feeding a switch box, then use 14-2 to the second switch location…at that point you only have (1) 14-2 coming in ( travelers ) and the (1) 14-2 going up to the light…

Nothing wrong with using 14-2 for the travelers as long as it is the same circuit that is feeding the circuit and then simply going up the light…taugh in every electrical school I have spoken at and apprentice programs.

Just so happens my brother does it all the time…I am just old school…I always run 14-3…but many are doing the 14-2 travelers to save on 3 wire and as long as it is same circuit…not really an issue.

Example would be wiring a room for example…going around the room with 14-2…and poping UP with a feed into BOTH ends…but only using 14-2 between the switches…the Neutral is already present.

Key…has to be the same circuit…can’t say I agree with it…I have told them I perfer to see it 14-3 for example…but some of the apprentice guys are doing it with 14-2…now as for my brother…he wont talk to me anyway since I failed him on an inspection…about 1 year ago…when I was the AHJ for a job subing in an area he was doing a house at.

I have never seen an inspector who wouldn’t cite 300.3(B) Conductors of the Same Circuit. All conductors of the same circuit and, where used, the grounded conductor and all equipment grounding conductors and bonding conductors shall be contained within the same raceway, auxiliary gutter, cable tray, cablebus assembly, trench, cable, or cord, unless otherwise permitted in accordance with 300.3(B)(1) through (4).

Even if you can pinch your nose tight enough to say this is a (3) exception because the cable and boxes are all plastic, the one turn transformer you made is likely to put rolling bars on the TV if it is on that wall.

BTW these houses WERE using the bare for one of the current carrying legs. That was the beef.

Ahh…yeah I figured you were actually speaking of the EGC as a hot leg…yeah that is a no-no…

Like I said…refusing it caused me and my brother not to speak now for over 1 1/2 years…was saying I really have not seen a problem with it in his installations over the years and I know they are teaching it in the apprentice program because I did a talk with them on the NEC…

I have not seen any problems with it…he does it in his mind to save wire…but what are we talking…about $1.00 buck a pull.

His arguement was that the neutral is already present in that box…on the same circuit…so he is taking over the EGC and ungrounded conductors…much like a switch leg so to speak.

I always find it easier to just use 14-3…lol

Because it is sometimes hard to detect…in a short quick inspection.

If I see a 3way on the plan or I am looking for a place where I know they should have one I will be looking for a red wire in the box on the rough. The problem after drywall is serious enough that the EC will be helping me look. :wink:

Unfortunately, around here, the inspectors were so busy they were not looking at much of anything. That is why I wouldn’t take a muni job when my state contract expired. I am not going to sign my name to something I didn’t look at. I used to spend an hour or more on my inspections if it was anything more complicated than looking at pipe in the ground.
I would rather stand there and watch someone fix a violation than to come back later. I even helped sometimes. I usually had a collection of fat wire and devices in my car that I found laying around. I also carried a big hammer for those guys who didn’t drive the rod deep enough. That was the good thing about working for the state. We were all working for the same guy and had the same goal.

lol…I think in this example Greg…the concept was as I understand it…they loop to all the receptacles within that room ONLY…does not have other branch circuits involved…all the same circuit…all the same grounded conductors…all the same EGC…connected of the SAME circuit…and ONLY that circuit.

Can’t say I have heard any reports of my brothers houses going KABOOM…but he knows my opinion on it…but then again he stopped talking to me over 1 1/2 years ago.

Greg…And i can say after that statement…we need MORE guys like you in the Muni. Inspection field. I also turned down a fulltime Muni AHJ job about 2 years ago…but for a different reason…not to mention the pay kinda stinks anyway…so I just fill in when needed to help them out when in a bind or need NEC advice.

But you are clearly a credit to the industry…no doubt.

BTW…atleast it sounds like the jobs you went on had plans…lol…half of them around here have no plans on site…they are rolled up in the truck somewhere…guess they do the best they can considering.

They were offering a fairly good buck for Florida, $50k or so but it was all windshield time, pulling 20-30 tickets a day and occasionally more like 40.
Spread them out across a fairly big county and you don’t have a lot of time.

BTW on the 3 way deal. Even if this is all plastic wiring, how do they rationalize metal studs?
“Whats that humming sound every time we turn on the light?”

Isolated example Greg…we dont have metal studs up here…have not done any metal studs in a house ever…in my 20 years…have on some commerical jobs…we ran AC cable…not an issue their as it is always done in 3 wire on those…regardless .

It is hard to find a house here being built with wood. The only place you see wood is in the load bearing walls of a 2 story and in the roof framing. They are even dabbling with steel trusses.
Steel ships better, stores better, there is less waste, bugs don’t eat it and it is cheaper. A good metal framing crew will go faster than carpenters too. Electricians go pretty fast too. Not much drilling, you just pop in a grommet. Everything is done with tek screws and a screw gun. When they need a hole they have a big punch that pops them out, perfect gromet size.

Wish it would come up my way greg…after so many homes and the same ole’ same old…would be a nice change of pace.

The only problem with metal framing is you need to add blocking for any kind of wall mounted load. Simply “hitting a stud” doesn’t buy you much. Florida has added a requirement that steel framing gets bonded because of all the plastic boxes. If you have metal boxes you are OK.