Originally Posted By: Jay Moge This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
i look into my crystal ball and …wait i see something…it’s an infomercial, about the new “electro-protect 3000” a complete home electrical monitoring system that keep you safe. and now i see the sales slogan…“how much is your childs life worth?”. or some such guilt inducing phrase like that. G.M. made a comercial that had children asking question just like that. so now if you don’t buy a new G.M. car, you don’t love or care about your family, because your driving an “unsafe” car. it’s all about the money sometimes.
Although I do not consider the NEC to be the Govt.
My biggest problem is the lies that where used to get this into the NEC.
I should make a product, lie about it's abilities and get the NEC to require it, I will make a fortune.
Who cares if it is snake oil.
The AFCI is supposed to protect the cords laying on the floor of the bedroom. As they currently need a 70 amp parallel arc to operate I see a short in a lamp cord starting a fire before the AFCI operates.
Point of reference, I can weld steel together with a 70 amp arc.
But hey, it is obvious you have been lost to 'the other side' and have put your blinders on so I am wasting my keyboard for nothing.
I still feel AFCIs are a GREAT concept and when they nail down the technology I will be all for them.
Right now I am forced to participate in a fraud.
There is no evidence yet that AFCIs have saved any live or property.
Think on this one for a bit.
Bedrooms where chosen as the test area for AFCIs as they have the largest number of electrical fire related fatalities.
These are the stats that the where used to push AFCIs into the NEC.
These stats also showed the majority of the fires where started by electrical systems more than 20 years old.
Do you really think the majority of AFCIs will still be operational 20 years or more after installation?
Before you say yes of course look into the failure rates of the simpler GFCI products.
At the least the AFCIs should be self testing and shut themselves down when they do not test. In other words failsafe.
I will install them as required but I do not have to like it.
FWIW I have never installed an AFCI, they are not required in the occupancies I work in.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
But hey, it is obvious you have been lost to 'the other side' and have put your blinders on so I am wasting my keyboard for nothing.
lol....Are you saying I have gone to the Dark Side Bob....lol.....I shall use the force may it be with me....lol
I hear ya Bob.....and I do agree the method is GOT into the NEC is a bit shady but in the end I just happen to feel it is for the good of the home owner.
Way....thats right ..you do commercial.....dang it I am going to sponsor a NEC update to demand it in commerical and industrial food areas also...lol....we can't just sit here and leave you out on all the AFCI fun...tehhehehehe
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: pabernathy This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Quote:
AFCIs are tested to mitigate the effects of various types of arcing, including both contact and non-contact arcing, and series and parallel arcing. Surgical cotton is used as the fire indicator in many of the tests. Some electrical arcing, such as that which might ignite flammable gases or vapors, is beyond the capabilities of an AFCI.
So as our chat has stated....the AFCI might just be the lesser of both evils to the ones getting rich and the people who feel they increase the safety of the all mighty " Electricity " in their walls.......I personally feel the AFCI's of TODAY work....and they will only get better.....
BUT......in total fairness I do see your points and they are VALID !
-- Paul W. Abernathy- NACHI Certified
Electrical Service Specialists
Licensed Master Electrician
Electrical Contractor
President of NACHI Central Virginia Chapter
NEC Instructor
Moderator @ Doityourself.com
Visit our website- www.electrical-ess.com
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
My neighbor Harvey Johnson from Cutler Hammer was in on the original development. He tends to agree with Bob, this thing is being Beta tested in the customer’s home. That is the same way the GFCI was developed and for the most part, just about every other piece of technology in the last 20 years. They invent it, they sell it, then they perfect it.
I think Bill Gates made that development model popular.
I will buy AFCIs for my house when they can go a couple years without a recall.
Originally Posted By: bbadger This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
Thanks Greg and Paul.
No matter what I feel about the current AFCIs available I do have high hopes for them in the future.
It is a great concept and in fairness when I think about how tough a job it is to make these not only perform but then fit in a standard breaker space I can only imagine how tough this is.
-- Bob Badger
Electrical Construction & Maintenance
Moderator at ECN
Originally Posted By: Greg Fretwell This post was automatically imported from our archived forum.
I was in the 1999 NEC road show with Harvey and he had serious concerns that the CH AFCI wasn’t going to be ready for the public in 2002. Jim Pauley (SqD ) was giving the show and he said he thought they were rushing it too. He was certainly right about his company’s product since they got recalled. They were still trying to figure out exactly what a good model for the arc signature would be. I gave Harvey a surplus Tektronics scope I had in the garage so he could play with arcs in his spare time at home. The real problem for them was trying to decide exactly how you get an arcing fault in real life and how to duplicate it in a repeatable fashion for testing.
It is also significant that AFCI technology is proprietary. This is a lot more complicated than the simple 5ma mismatch you detect in a GFCI. AFCIs are more art than science. No two manufacturers make their detection algorithm exactly the same so the level of protection for a particular fault is dependent on the brand of breaker you bought and who they licensed the AFCI chip from. (they don’t tell you that)
It was fun watching them dance around their particular system without actually going into too much detail about how it worked.
Jim and Harvey were good friends, in fact Jim stayed at Harvey’s house on some of these trips. It was always fun watching them argue about Challenger breakers in SqD panels.
