Call me tomorrow Nick. Or I’ll call you. What about the house? he dropped his insurance awhile back.
To Kevin’s post, you do have an underwriter/agent/and data analyst. I performed all 3 functions for 3 home insurance companies here from 2002-2007 before getting my contractor’s license and into the inspection business. As stated here and is obvious to most, rates to insure a frame house vs masonry for basic fire insurance (does not affect wind) are usually at minimum 50% higher, usually 70%. Not taking a side, but the reinspection program was not about said company getting money, it was the fact that there was so much error in the data collection of the items that lead to those discounts. Money was the end result like everything in our society but the root of why and how is what started it-extremely bad data. The frame v masonry question was asked as merely that, data collection. As an underwriter, it was a constant issue for agents to rate a 2 story house that was say 50/50 as masonry, when clearly the split was frame. The reinspection process just used that as a verification of construction for the fire rating purposes. Most companies like Auto Owners & Southern do hazard inspections and have their inspectors do the same sort of determination. To Robert’s question I would figure out what percentage of the house’s total square footage is frame and if under 33% try and write a letter on letterhead showing your calculations from the Prop Appraiser, or if using linear wall dimensions, a very detailed sketch showing how you arrived at your conclusion.
2nd edit… really wish we had some actual underwriters and insurance agents on this message board to lend some insight.
Now that is a great idea.
They are here, they just do not post. There are even agent in my area that know inspectors that post here by name. When they bash insurance companies and agents with 1/2 truths it makes us look bad. If you think that the insurance companies do not monitor what is posted here you would be sadly mistaken.
I know they monitor. I have been told I have gotten referrals for my no bullshot attitude and telling it like it is.
I also know I have lost a few for the same reason but I really don’t want to work with that type anyhow 
That is something proud of. What I say here is what I feel and is not influenced by the chance that some of those looking might be customers.
Heck I even admit it when I do not know something or think I am wrong.
Few around here will do that.
We understand that Mike, the issue is you run you mouth about things you do not understand. You consistently slam insurance companies, agents and the EMPLOYEES of those companies that are in the same boat as we are. Insulting them by calling them names gets nothing accomplished but making inspectors look like fools. You do not understand why or how we got where we are in the insurance and inspection businesses. You refuse to play by the rules OR work towards a better system. It just means one of two things in their eyes you are ignorant or you are an idiot. That is not the image we want for a young profession.
Begin to understand the re-inspection market, the costs involved and you will have an appreciation for the cost of HO insurance in Florida. If you were a re-inspection company you would charge large rates also given the risks and huge amounts of fraud. Citizens only complicates the matter as people want lower rates but private companies are not willing to take the risks at those rates.
I know much more than you think about big biz and a great many of those involved are fools, crooks, etc. Kissing the insurance companies a s s and giving them whatever they want only helps line your pockets or the ones that accept, agree and give them what they want. and puts inspectors in danger for useless reasons. I only worry about doing what is needed and doing more is a waste of time and money. HMMMM the same big companies who have the worst reputations keep getting all the reinspections. Why is that??? Because they do whatever the insurance companies suggest. They do not pay their employees worth a crap and maybe 50/50 get them done right. I bet my odds are higher in accracy then ALL the big companies because it is my name on the line.
Oh yeah and if I was an insurance agency I would pay for the inspections and hire only those who perform accurate inspections and I WOULD NOT endanger inspectors lives trying to photograph things that are there and can be viewed by the inspector.
I used to use a monocular to verify things photographs are useless, promote fraud and are very dangerous to take while in attics.
I want out of the biz likely as much as you want me out and I just may be done. We will see how the foot works out. I do and started doing wind mits to pay the bills. I just happen to be good and efficient at it. Most of the time I do not enjoy it. If I stay in the inspection biz I am going to be doing things quite a bit different than most. The greater portion of my life I have been in management and not labor. I may be in labor temporarily but will get back to some sort of management where the money is. If is difficult to make a living off of what you yourself can do. It is much easier to make a good living off of what many can do or at least be in charge of them.
What’s to understand?
The early inspections, a majority of them, were performed by improperly trained, unqualified individuals. Fast forward to today…there are still plenty of individuals, the same individuals that have been doing these inspections wrong in the past, being rewarded by now being allowed an advantage, the guaranteed no re-inspection clause, even more work.
Then, we can add the changing of the form every other month to the confusion. As if that wasn’t bad enough, the individuals reading these reports have absolutely no knowledge about what they are looking at.
I spoke to an agent last week about a home built in 1996 in Broward county. She said the underwriter, Universal, needed a picture of a “shiner”…here we go again!
I explained to her that what she was referring to was a code violation, not a method to determine what nail was used to nail decking and she was able to understand by saying, “They want to see a negative to prove a positive”?
All the picture of the “shiner” proves, is that someone doesn’t know how to place a nail in a piece of wood.
It would be nice if we were all reading from the same script. How about Nick, instead of offering NACHI courses for Realtors as CEUs, offer the wind mitigation course for free to the Agents? I am sure there is a PowerPoint presentation of it lurking somewhere.
I bet John has one he could provide.
Perhaps we could ask the “Home Inspector Council” to push an amendment to F.S. 627.711 that requires ALL underwriters that review inspection reports to have the same training that we are required to have? I believe that requiring the people who are reviewing our reports and making decisions that affect not only us, but the Florida consumer, to have a fundamental understanding of the inspection process as well as the terminology- would go a long way in reducing the confusion and errors that currently exist in the process. If implemented, it would be a win, win, win, for all parties. That - of course- assumes that a win, win, win scenario would be desired outcome of the decision makers- rather than a lose, loose, win scenario. Hmm? something to think about.
That is what is funny now. Due to required photos and guys that label them I have seen a great number of pictures of stuff that are not what they say they are and the underwriters and such that do not know what is what and have no training just accept it because there is a useless photo with the words they want to see next to it. That is why I specifically do not label my pictures. 1 the law does not say I have to so doing so is extra work. 2 if they do not know what they are looking at then they should not be doing that job.
How many of you have seen pictures of 6D nails labeled as 8D’s?
How about marks on trusses with rulers clamped on the truss with marks all over and then surprise behind on the other side of the truss there is something else attached there?
We should observe and report what we see. If you are smart you should take pictures for your records so you can say how you got the results. Giving them to folks who know next to nothing about being in an attic is useless.
You should NEVER be required to show a picture of something that SHOULD NOT be there as per code to prove something.
Eric, I agree with almost everything you said. The “code violations” that you are stuck on is inevitable when building a house with a nail gun. Trusses are not straight when placed on a home. If the foundation is off, the wall is off, the wood is bent, the truss is twisted by the crane or the straps are slightly off these all contribute to less than perfect alignment. Most of which you guys do not seem to understand. Almost every home has at least a “side spliter.” There has been only a couple of occasions out of 20,000 that a nail could not be found, in our experience. Get off the pedestal about minor code violations and understand that homes are built by humans in an imperfect world. WE are NOT doing CODE inspections(repeat as needed).
It is more likely that a roof was not re-nailed or the inspector lies than it is a nail can not be found. Combined that with the check of the agent and underwriter and you can prove mistakes or fraud. This is what helps the insurance companies. Inspectors are LESS likely to lie if they have to provide proof of their lie, rather later just blaming it on a simple “check box error.”
Understand what I just wrote and you will have a grasp of why we are, where we are, and why shiners and photos are important to insurance companies.
As far as who committed the fraud in the past you need to look no further than the many contractors who did not make it through the downturn and needed a quick buck. The situation is proliferated by a few large companies that hire them and pay them peanuts. These same companies take the liberty to change reports, as they see fit. Reports signed by the license holder(that has to be illegal). The large companies also have a large voice, which we do not.
If you want home inspectors to be a professional voice we must over come the “new kid” stigma and understand that the only thing going to make us better or look better than the established companies and other professions is us. We are at a crossroads in the industry if we continue to be non-professional we will be treated as such(as many comments here prove).
Remember, like it or not our government is strongly influenced by Contractors and Agents. Many of our Representatives are one or the other, most personally know several of each. That leaves us only one path, garner trust with extreme professionalism, which apparently a sentiment some of you do not care to do. Picking a fights(correct or not), calling names and implying fraud will win us no friends and will influence all the wrong people. We all should make a positive contribution to the system rather than a negative.
If we aren’t going to worry about the “minor” code violations, why have a code at all? Isn’t the building code a “minimum requirement”? If the contractors and more appropriately, the workers, cannot perform work to the “minimum”, just exactly what are they doing?
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We aren’t?
Please explain to me how any home that gets a check-box marked A or B for question 1, can be guaranteed, 100%, to meet the code. We are not even talking about one component, according to the question, we are now, by marking check-box A or B, certifying that the entire structure meets the code.
As for all the excuses you site for in reality, poor workmanship, it doesn’t change the code. I assure you this, as someone who has put on a roof or two, if I ever missed, I removed the nail and replaced it…common sense. If the nail guns are the problem, either they need to be redesigned or perhaps we should go back to a more reliable method…hand nailing. Or, perhaps the problem lies elsewhere…the workers…nah…that can’t be it.
When you speak with the higher ups of Citizens, the OIR, Universal, and others, and listen to the rhetoric they spew, it becomes quite apparent, that to fix this system will require a great deal of effort and money. Unfortunately, as you mentioned, those that control all of this, “know each other”, and would much prefer the situation stay the way it is, unless a new system can be put into place to guarantee even more revenue.
I am sure you and virtually every inspector here has run across an inspection report and wondered, “did the guy even go to this house”? No one is that dumb. One home I inspected where the guy marked 100% wood frame…in the picture submitted for the roof to wall connection, it clearly shows the top of a concrete wall. It also showed a single wrap, but, hey, if you cant tell the difference between concrete and wood frame, how would you know the difference between a single wrap and a toenail.
The other home I referred to, built in 1996 in the hurricane zone, should never have even been questioned as the nailing pattern is stipulated in the code. Yet, I have to spend another half an hour out of my day, educating some pencil pusher on the finer points of the building code. At least this girl was smart enough to understand what I was saying. She also agreed with me that some sort of training should be give to anyone who has anything to do with these inspections. I told her I would keep her posted. I seem to remember something was going to be proposed last year to “make it so”. Any news on that front?
When I was building house I would say every missed nail was renailed. You absolutely know when you miss. Not to mention Eric the nailing required to “code” now is closer than 6 inches. And when nailing with a nail gun you tend to place more nails then less.
John, There are guys here like Eric that are extremely smart and great inspectors but are so stuck on things like shiners or their hate for contractors that they blowup and can’t think past that. It is unfortunate
Unfortunate for who?
Back up there Preston, where ever did I say or intimate I hate contractors? It isn’t the contractors that are making the mistakes, it is the workers, but then again, the contractors don’t care that much, as long as it “passes code”.
If it is closer than six inches, then there is absolutely no excuse for missing. If you cannot draw a straight line and place a nail every four inches, you should be doing something else.
The reason I am stuck on “shiners” as you put it, is because it is a negative proving a positive, which to my way of thinking, would be a contradiction.
I was taught if you are going to do something do it right, if you are going to do it wrong, do it somewhere else.
Many people say I am stuck on this or stuck on that and to those I ask, am I wrong? Are you allowed to nail wood anywhere you feel? You see, this goes beyond that silly building code. It is the recommendation of the manufacturer and no where in their instructions does it say, “Nail the decking into thin air or anywhere else you feel like it”.
Let’s skip all the bull****…it is wrong, correct?
Wow, first time I ever heard you admit that. 
To what extent should a inspector have to go through to get a picture?
It is asinine to crawl through trusses throughout an entire house looking for one.
What If I can see a ring shank with my monocular 20 feet away. Should i endanger myself and the clients property to crawl through insulation and over or around duct work and such to hold a ruler next to it and take a picture?
Hell no.
Same goes for roof to wall connections. I carry the best camera that is feasible to use in attics and am a semi professional photographer and I cannot always get the shot. I can almost always verify the connection with a monocular.
We should be taken on our word like any other professional. If an insurance company does not like it then they can do what we do when we do not like the word of a professional. We PAY for a second opinion.
The smart inspectors will still take picts whenever possible to back their case and have something to refer to in case someone has a question the dumb ones will eventually not get anymore work.
The difference between me and a lot of you is I care about the guy doing the work and his safety and the clients property. The insurance company should have to prove we are wrong like being assumed innocent unless proven guilty. We should be taken on our word like any other professional. We say it and sign our name to it that should be enough. Find a guy that is wrong all the time then punish him do not make the rest of us go through hell and endanger ourselves and others property because of a few bad apples.
First if the home had AHJ sign-off on it, you should consider it built to the code that they signed of on. Not, I see something they missed, or I think the official should have done XYZ… Your job is NOT a code inspection, that was done, maybe the official seen it and had them install another nail, maybe they did not, you are not the official, that is not why you are there, do your job correctly, not theirs.
Did you ever consider 8d nail on 12" spacing is plenty?.. 8d ring shank glue nails are even better and you really do not need them every 6"… Maybe they require them every 6" in case they miss some?.. Think about that before you go correcting every contractor and building official in the state. You really should look at the engineering and compare them to the building code nailing requirement table.
Mike you are required to take the picture because people like you lie. They lie for their friends, they lie for their neighbor, they lie for their agent. Your a GC build a bridge and get over it. Or build a better solution, you wont so you whine. If you can not do the job safely, then do not do it. Tell the client, tell the agent, and maybe someone will change the system. You wont, you will do it because you can not make any money in construction and you lost you *** there too, now you are loosing your *** doing inspections that you do not like. You are a leach on our profession. Give it up and become a honest used car salesman. Seriously, become part of the solution, not the problem.
Ohhh, sorry about the rant, I forgot you do not care… I and may other inspectors still do. I’ll stop now.
Are you calling me a liar?