Cracks in Concrete

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Originally Posted By: kmcmahon
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I tried that, and they charged for every inch. That and when I got em home, I was in the same predicament as they were not marked, so tried to best guess it


I’d rather have a gauge.

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Wisconsin Home Inspection, ABC Home Inspection LLC

Search the directory for a Wisconsin Home Inspector

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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" being vague. I understand where you are coming from as an engineer also, but being vague is sometimes a good thing for an HI. And actually measuring cracks, and not missing any cracks or misreading measurements, can be time consuming and sticky also … an HI is then outside the SOP.


I tend to think in the following terms as cracking relates to home inspections (not evaluations), and deciding how to report observations (your mileage may vary ...  ) ... and note that the lead for a 0.7mm mechanical pencil is almost exactly 1/32", and a penny is exactly 1/16" thick ... hint hint:

- Barely Visible Crack: Must look close to see it
- Hairline Crack: Less than about 1/32"
- Thin Crack: About 1/32" to less than 1/16"
- Significant Crack: About 1/16" to less than 3/16"
- Major Crack: About 3/16" or greater

Although I have crack comparators and a micron scope for measuring crack widths, I wouldn't use them as part of a home inspection. It could be construed that I was performing an evaluation by making those measurements ... particularly since I am also a PE. So I won't take measurements, unless I am being paid extra for those engineering services and have an agreement rider for that.

Also note that there is a difference between a significant crack in terms of the width, and significant cracking in terms of the pattern. There can be thin or hairline cracking that is "significant" because of the pattern or indications of problems. So for a home inspection I think it's easier to just report what you see ... e.g "barely visible", "visible", "obvious" and like terms ... observe and report, thats the job.

Just my opinion and 2-nickels ...

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

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Originally Posted By: Vince Santos
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phinsperger wrote:

kmcmahon wrote: Anyone know where you can get one of these cards for estimating electrical wire sizes? I've also been looking for something to measure wire sizes. Not like these. I'm looking for a non-conductive scissors type caliper (like a long pair of needle nose) that would have a readout on the handle side indicating wire gauge with and without insulation. Something I can stick into a live panel  I can invision it but nothing like this seems to exist. Anyone interested in helping make a couple?

That's a great idea, let me know if you come across anything as I would like to purchase it too.

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Desire is half of life, indifference is half of death.
--Kahlil Gibran

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Originally Posted By: mkober
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OK Bob,


Maybe too much of the engineer in me is showing through, and no, I don't think we should all be spending entire afternoons in crawl spaces measuring and recording every stemwall crack we see. But I stand firm in quantitatively (is that really a word?) reporting what I observe, and noting it on my inspection report. A few swipes with a comparator and jotting down a number only takes a minute or two, and it's one of the things that sets me apart from my competitors. One of the reasons I got into this business is seeing a definite need here for someone who can provide a client with an accurate, concise report based on observed conditions. The "boilerplate" stuff with endless pages of definitions and historical background may be effective in putting the client to sleep, but lacks the ability of providing readily accessible information to help with home-buying and maintenance decisions.

If you haven't been there yet, trial lawyers have a field day with witnesses who make a practice of being "intentionally vague."

MJK

P.S. Unless my dial caliper is completely out of whack, a penney is actually 10% +/- thinner than 1/16"--are you Yankees circulating a bloated version of what the Denver mint produces???

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Originally Posted By: wperkins
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dedwards wrote:

How much does a "feeler gauge" cost these days? It measures in thousands of an inch too. You can get one at Auto Zone.

I like that feeler gauge idea .....  

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Waylon W. Perkins
In House Inspections
www.inhouseinspections.com

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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mkober wrote:

... trial lawyers have a field day with witnesses who make a practice of being "intentionally vague."

I agree for engineering services, since engineers are expected to be precise. But for a home inspection do you also measure and quantitatively report (yes, its a word ... lol) ground impedance, voltage drop, surface moisture, wood moisture content, wood probe penetration, gas detector readings, residual water pressures, ac compressor readings, smoke pipe probe readings, etc.

Then what do all those numbers/measurements mean to your clients. You are then stuck with evaluating hard numbers ... see where I am going with that. Home inspectors are generalists, and not specialists ... so they can get into trouble measuring and reporting things with precise hard numbers. Maybe a better way to put it is an HI is being "intentionally general" ... 

mkober wrote:

P.S. Unless my dial caliper is completely out of whack, a penney is actually 10% +/- thinner than 1/16"--are you Yankees circulating a bloated version of what the Denver mint produces???

According to the US Mint a penny is 1.55mm or 0.061" ... CLICK HERE ... which is less than 2% from 1/16" or 0.062". I measured a little less with a micrometer (are we gettin hosed?) ... but close enough for me. So IMHO a .7mm pencil and a few shinny pennys works just fine for an HI ... 

Also, I would not use feeler gages for measuring crack widths, because it will generally underestimate the actual width of a crack ... particularly for thinner jagged edge cracks. A feeler gage will measure the highest point on one side to the highest point on the other side along the length the gage fits in ... you want to measure a specific high point on one side to the matching low point on the other side.

Can ya tell I am an engineer too ... 

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

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Originally Posted By: dbowers
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home inspection.


For engineering purposes the fact that the VERTICAL crack is less than 1/16" wide and equal in distance across its width, with no offset across the field gives another engineer some basis for analysis.

To a homeowner it means next to nothing. But to many homeowners, the statement that the crack is significant or not significant means something.

Just my $0.03

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Originally Posted By: mkober
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Bob,


It's gotta be the altitude--pennies minted at more than a mile above sea level obviously suffer significant (hairline??) oxygen deprivation, somehow reducing their nominal thickness by 10%. Or possibly the U.S. Mint has a quality control problem. And, yes, I realize it's difficult for me to separate the engineer from the home inspector in me. Maybe the only way to resolve our differences is to get together wiith pennies, calipers, micrometers and comparators in hand, over a few beers--I'll buy if you care to fly out to Durango sometime--Wolf Creek just had a few more feet of the white stuff if you're so inclined.

MJK

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Originally Posted By: cradan
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Fine, Michael. I was going to head-out your way anyway for the comparator, but now that I realize where you are, the hell with the comparator and the inspections…let’s compare a few fall lines at Telluride instead. ALWAYS a good choice.


(As you probably know, vertical is hard to find in Illinois; the highest EASL in Illinois is either Cahokia Mounds in Southern Illinois, or maybe one of the local landfills, at about 550'-600'.) For those of us who DON'T XC, it's not a skiing paradise.


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Chris
http://www.inspect4me.com
Chicago Illinois Home Inspections

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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mkober wrote:

... I realize it's difficult for me to separate the engineer from the home inspector in me.

I hear ya ... it was a difficult, but legally necessary adjustment for me way back when. You really have to change your thought process from being a highly trained specialist, to a generalist who knows the basics concerning just about everything related to a home. That doesn't mean you cant offer additional or more detailed services in some areas ... just be careful with the SOP attached/referenced in your agreement ... hint hint.

mkober wrote:

Maybe the only way to resolve our differences is to get together wiith pennies, calipers, micrometers and comparators in hand, over a few beers--I'll buy if you care to fly out to Durango sometime--Wolf Creek just had a few more feet of the white stuff if you're so inclined.

SOLD ... Vail is my favorite, and I almost moved out your way for the skiing ... but Wolf Creek works just fine by me. But maybe we could leave the oxidation charts and micrometers at home (since the end result has to be we are being hosed by uncle sam), and just go for the beers slope side after a few alpine runs ... 

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong

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Originally Posted By: ssopha
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Kevin,


Is this what you are looking for?

http://www.professionalequipment.com/xq/ASP/id.5/subID.203/qx/default.htm

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Originally Posted By: cradan
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Souksana, in my opinion, they’re both kind of pieces of sh*t. Bought both of them from PE; the $13 model measures entry cable size, and is limited to #2, #1 and #2/0 conductors (copper) or #2, #2/0 and #4/0 (aluminum).


The $19 sizer is a combination "pass-through" card (for open, unconnected conductors), and a set of notched sizing templates ranging from #14 awg through #4/0 awg.

In both cases, you'll need to stick these small cards or templates (and one of your hands) where they probably shouldn't be.

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Chris
http://www.inspect4me.com
Chicago Illinois Home Inspections

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Originally Posted By: roconnor
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ssopha wrote:

Kevin, Is this what you are looking for?

Kevin indicated he was not looking for gages like the ones offered by PE. I have a set, and I am on the fence as far a recommendations go.

But in any event, more to the point of this post, I think a .7mm pencil and a few shinny pennys is a pretty reasonable expense for roughing out crack sizes for an HI ... 

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Robert O'Connor, PE
Eagle Engineering ?
Eagle Eye Inspections ?
NACHI Education Committee

I am absolutely amazed sometimes by how much thought goes into doing things wrong